<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">why do you assume cats, dogs, and horses lack language? Elephants call each other by name, octopi definitely appear to communicate symbolically (language), whales and dolphins seem to have "language" and use it to communicate. Did proto-humans lack language because the means of communication were gestures, paintings, song and not dictionary words grammatically parsed? cats dogs and horses definitely 'communicate' using sound, body language scent (their pee smells quite different when they are conveying "I was here" and "this is mine."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, at 6:28 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div><span>I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past or to think about their future. They can not formulate </span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" dir="auto"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">stories of themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. </span></span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" dir="auto"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">Language is the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as language.</span></span><br></div><div dir="auto"><span class="font" style="font-family:Google Sans;"><span class="color" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=""></span></span></span><br></div><div dir="auto"><div><span class="font" style="font-family:Google Sans;"><span class="color" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="">Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.<br></span></span></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"></span></span><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">-J.</span></span><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"></span></span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div>-------- Original message --------<br></div><div>From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2@gmail.com><br></div><div>Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br></div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought<br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div>Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students found it truly distressing.<br></div><div><br></div><div>So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent marking?)<br></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div class="qt-gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;" class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant in a dialogue from Plato...</span><br></div><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than the perception of oneself? </span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><a href="https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/">https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/</a></span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a strange attractor.</span></span></span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"><a href="https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors">https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors</a></span></span></span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">-J.</span><br></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br></p></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" dir="auto" align="left"><div>-------- Original message --------<br></div><div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div>Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought<br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div>,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, <i>per explorandum</i> ? Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div>I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language which only humans have ( and LLMs now )<br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/">https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-J.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div>-------- Original message --------<br></div><div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div>Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought<br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div>Jochen,<br></div><div><br></div><div><i>I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for consciousness. </i><br></div><div><i></i><br></div><div><i>So. Is your cat connscious?</i><br></div><div><i></i><br></div><div><i>Nick</i><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div class="qt-gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;" class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...<br></div><div><a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-J.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a rel="noreferrer" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a rel="noreferrer" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>