<div dir="auto"><div>Nick, </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">George as dinner guest: </div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://youtu.be/BsF9tgtLk1U?si=uryJ05y7Ok77nJYi">https://youtu.be/BsF9tgtLk1U?si=uryJ05y7Ok77nJYi</a><br></div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">____________________________________________<br>CEO Founder, Simtable.com<br><a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a> <br><br>Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab<br><a href="mailto:stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu">stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu</a><br><br>mobile: (505)577-5828</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 11:19 AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, Steve,</div><div><br></div><div>While I might draw back from saying that George Peter Tremblay, IV, is my friend, I sure would cop to the admission that he is my buddy.</div><div>The term, "buddy", was introduced to me years ago as a label for a kind of narrow or incomplete friendship that surrounds a particular activity, as in "golfing buddy" or "drinking buddy". George is just great when I want to explore some new noodle that has just come upon me,but he demurs politely when I invite him to dinner. Friam has been spared much of my madness because of George. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 12:53 PM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><span>Sabine H.
snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read through
the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust... I think it is
(obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here.<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote><span style="color:rgb(119,119,119);font-family:"Open Sans",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:justify;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">QUALL-E, a
quantum computer running a human-level artificial intelligence
algorithm, who has observed a quantum system</span><br>
<a href="https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Frank, <br>
<br>
embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors
and actuators like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and
hopefully acts to avoid him?<br>
<br>
Consider the Simtable that uses <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">structured light</a> in a
perception-action loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in
ecological psychology) with the projector camera
feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and
watch with its camera for human interaction
(laserpointers, object tracking etc) to trigger
corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact
with the user. Is it embodied?<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at
12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>So you think of software running on a computer as being
embodied?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g">140 Calle Ojo Feliz, </a><br><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g">
Santa Fe, NM 87505</a><br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 7, 2024,
9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think of large language models as the most
embodied things on the planet, but let that go for a
moment. Back to baby steps. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can you lay out for me why you believe that
language is essential to self-awareness. Does that
believe arise from ideology, authority, or some set of
facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I
should say where I am coming from. A lot of my
so-called career was spent railing against circular
reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So,
if language is essential to self-awareness, and
animals do not have language, then it indeed follows
that animals do not have self-awareness. But what if
our method for detecting self awareness requires
language? Now we are in a loop. Are we in such a
loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent
of language, convince you that animals are not
self-aware. Is self awareness extricable from
language?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is an old old trope that animals are automata
but that humans have soul. Descartes swore by it. Is
"language" the new soul?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at
7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><font dir="auto">I would say cats,
dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because
they lack language. They live in the present
moment, in the here and now. Without language they
do not have the capability to reflect on their
past or to think about their future. They can not
formulate </font><span dir="auto">stories of themselves which
could help to form a sense of identity. </span><span dir="auto">Language is the mirror in
which we perceive ourselves during "this is me"
moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One
dimensional scents trails do not count as
language.</span>
<div dir="auto"><font face="Google Sans" color="#000000"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto"><font face="Google Sans" color="#000000"><span>Large languages models
lack consciousness because they do not have a
body which is embedded as a actor in an
environment. These two things are necessary:
the physical world of bodies, and the mental
world of language. When both collide in the
same spot we can get consciousness.<br>
</span></font>
<div dir="auto"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span>-J.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to
know what he thought, and since I genuinely
don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
conversation has the same quality. I apologize
for that. my students found it truly
distressing. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, if you will indulge me, why don't you
think your cat has meta=awareness? Authority,
ideology, or is there some experience you have
had that leads you to think that. It would be
kind of odd if it she didn't because animals
have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self
from other. They have ways of knowinng that "I
did that". (e.g., scent marking?) <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 5,
2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Well
yes, if meta-awareness is defined as
acting in response to one's own awareness
then I would say animals like a cat don't
have it but humans have. As an example I
could say this almost feels like I am a
participant in a dialogue from Plato...</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">I
would be surprised if it can be
described in simple terms. If the
essence of consciousness is subjective
experience then it is indeed hard to
describe by a theory although there are
many attempts. Persons who perceive
things differently are wired
differently. And what is more subjective
than the perception of oneself? </span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/</a></span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span>If
we can describe it mathematically then
probably as a way an information feels
if it is processed in complex ways, ad
infinitum like the orbits of a strange
attractor.</span></span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span><a href="https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors</a></span></span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">-J.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't
moving slowly, we aren't moving." So,
can I define some new terms, tentatively,
<i>per explorandum</i> ? Let's call
acting-in-respect-to-the-world,
"awareness". Allowing this definition,
we certainly seem to agree that the cat is
aware. Lets define meta-awareness as
acting i respect to one's own awareness.
Now, am I correct in assuming that you
identify meta-awareness with consciousness
and that you think that the cat is not
meta-aware and that I probably am? And
further that you think that meta-awareness
requires consciousness?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">I would say a cat is
conscious in the sense that it is aware
of its immediate environment. Cats are
nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
mostly sleep during the day.
Consciousness in the sense of being
aware of oneself as an actor in an
environment requires understanding of
language which only humans have ( and
LLMs now )
<div dir="auto"><a href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message
--------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
</div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the
Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper
Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Jochen, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>I think the first step in any
conversation is to decide whether
your cat is conscious. If so, why
do you think so; if not,
likewise. I had a facinnationg
conversation with GBT about
whether he was conscious and he
denied it "hotly", which, of
course, met one of his criteria
for consciousness. <br>
</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i>So. Is your cat connscious?<br>
</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i>Nick <br>
</i></div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen
Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I don't get Philip
Goff: first we send our children
20 years to school, from
Kindergarten to college and
university, to teach them all
kinds of languages, and then we
wonder how they can be
conscious. It will be the same
for AI: first we spend millions
and millions to train them all
available knowledge, and then we
wonder how they can develop
understanding of language and
consciousness...</div>
<a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/</a>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
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