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<p>SG you inglorious basterd! You and Dan Gupta IVo !</p>
<p>I engaged your ideosyncratic vector-space encoding of
consciousness, Dual-Field and all (I cranked my setting to the 1.0
stops, though I think 1.0 - epsilon is more correct).</p>
<p>I couldn't guess easily what to do with the clip-board full of
JSON encoded results... <br>
</p>
<p>I now want a multi(5)dimensional spring-embedder and/or a Grand
Tour or an SOM of this space and the "implied" higher-dimensional
space this is a mere scaffolding or armature of? But maybe that
is just me... What does this "whole" space look like
intuitively?</p>
<p>SS<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB59852F889A2127DEF7246B6DC5A62@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Lol. That’s
fine, except for the suspicious promotion Ecological Dual
Fields!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen
Guerin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 11, 2024 4:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Is consciousness a mystery?
(used to be "mystery...deeper".T<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <br>
<br>
you wrote:<br>
<b>> In reply, I only would say that if somebody were
willing to ask me short, to-the-point questions about my
thinking on any matter and explore carefully my answers, I
would eternally grateful. I might even cuddle with them
in a thunderstorm.<br>
</b><br>
Based on your request above, Dan created 5 questions for
you. Please answer by moving the sliders and hit the button
to copy the results and email it to the list. I promise to
carefully consider your answers. I asked Dan to do his best
to partition the consciousness space to understand where you
are coming from and give the closest philosophers to
your thinking. Any issue with the questions, partitioning or
philosopher vectors we can follow up with Dan.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Consciousness Questions:<a
href="https://guerin.acequia.io/consciousnessTensor.html"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://guerin.acequia.io/consciousnessTensor.html</a>
<br>
(from the AI maker that brought you Elf Selector)<br>
<br>
others are welcome to post their results. Dan may create
a group report with enough samples...<br>
<br>
<img style="width:3.6964in;height:3.5952in"
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.ac40gxxZ.0eiGit8S@swcp.com" class=""
width="355" height="345" border="0"><br>
<a
href="https://guerin.acequia.io/consciousnessTensor.html"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://guerin.acequia.io/consciousnessTensor.html</a><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">_________________________________________________________________<br>
Stephen Guerin<br>
CEO, Founder <br>
<a href="https://simtable.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://simtable.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu</a><br>
<a
href="https://hwpi.harvard.edu/eps-visualization-research-laboratory/home"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Harvard
Visualization Research and Teaching Lab</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"><br>
mobile: (505)577-5828</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:55<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Steve, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The scale of your response alone
suggests that it cannot be baby steps. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I guess I am proposing a method
here, one inn we work outward from an evocative
experience to explore our understandings of
contraversial concepts, and that we do it in
relatively short bursts. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>Dusty comes to cuddle with
David when she hears thunder.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>Does Dusty love David?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If yes, what else would you expect
Dusty to do with respect to David. given you have
made that attribution.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If no, what more would have Dusty
have to do, before you would make such an attribution.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to respond to an
inference that there is something patronizing about my
insisting on a method, as if I think you need
thought-therapy and I am the guy to give it. In
reply, I only would say that if somebody were willing
to ask me short, to-the-point questions about my
thinking on any matter and explore carefully my
answers, I would eternally grateful. I might even
cuddle with them in a thunderstorm.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">NIck <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:05<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I'm glad you acknowledged (in another branch of
this thread?) the "grumpiness" aspect of your
initiation/participation in this thread. Your
analogy around thought/feeling "expression" and that
of pimple popping is in fact very apt if a bit
graphic. I do think many of us want this apparently
deeply thorny/paradoxical problem to be easier than
it is? And the plethora of complexly subtle
dis/mis-agreements on language around consciousness,
intelligence, cognition, (self) awareness, qualia
complicates that yet more. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't know if my own baby-steps are helpful,
given that my background/perspective might align
more with DaveW than most others here (I'm very
sympathetic with a pan-consciousness perspective)?
maybe it parses as baby-babble more than
baby-steps...<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
missed most of this (and related) threads
but am surprised at where this seems to be
going. I always associated consciousness
with subjective experience and not
necessarily with self awareness. The "hard
problem of consciousness" is qualia, not
self-awareness. No? An AI agent cannot
understand language on anything other than a
superficial basis because it has no idea
what, for example "wet," means.
Nevertheless, it will be quite good at
stringing words together that say coherent
things about wetness. An AI agent has no <i>idea
</i>about anything. At the same time, an AI
agent will be quite good at creating
coherent statements about very many things.
Just because an AI agent is able to create
coherent statements does not mean that those
statements reflect the agent's ideas--since
it has no ideas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p>Russ's point here is a good pivot point for me in
this conversation if it is possible to make the
pivot. It may not be. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Knowing and Knowing-About:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p> I use the former to be the quality of qualia...
not easily formalizeable nor quantifiable nor with
obvious models which are not intrinsically
subjective. "Knowing-About" is for me reserved
for the formalized models of "facts about the
world and relations between ideas" and when I say
"formalized" I don't preclude storytelling or the
highly vilified "just so stories". <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Formalized mathematical, statistical, logical
models with digital computer simulations (or
analog electronic, mechanical, hydraulic,
pneumatic "circuits" or "systems") are "knowing
about"... a steam train for example embodies
"knowing about" converting carbon-fuel into linear
motion across long distances, carrying heavy loads
by way of many repeatable mechanisms... the
implementation and operation of such a
device/system is a "proof" in some sense of the
design. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> On top of that design/system are other
design/systems (say the logic of Railroad Robber
Baronages) upon which yet other systems (say
Industrial-revolution era proto-hyper-capitalism)
on top of which rides trans-global corporatism and
nationalism in their own "gyre and gimbal" with a
in intra-stellar and eventually inter-stellar
variation in the sense of Asimov's Foundation and
Empire or perhaps for the youth culture here
(under 60?) George Lucas' Star Wars Empire or
Roddenberry's Star Trek Federation vs ??? <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Consciousness:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>A the lowest level consciousness or perhaps
proto-consciousness registers for me as "having a
model of the world useful for guiding behaviour
toward
surviving/thriving/reproducing/collectivizing".
This permeates all of life from somewhere down at
the single-celled
bacteria/archaea/fungi/phyto-thingies/ up to and
through vertebrates/mammals/hominids/sapiens <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>On the reflection of whether my cat or dog, or
the hummingbirds outside my window or the mice
trying to sneak back into my house have
"consciousness", or even more pointedly the
mosquito I slapped into a blood (my blood by the
way) spot on my forearm last night, have
"consciousness"... while each of these appear to
have a "consciousness" I know it to be variously
more or less familiar to my own. My elaborate
(unfettered?) imagination allows me to make up
(just so?) stories about how cetaceans,
cephalapods, jellyfish all variously have aspects
of their "consciousness' that I could (do?)
recognize (empathize with?). So I would want a
multivalued function with at least two simple
scalars: Familiarity-to-Me(Conscioiusness) and
Potency-of(Consciousness), pick your scale... my
identical twin or maybe conjoined twin might max
out on the first scale while a nematode or a
bacterium might trail off toward nil on the first
AND second scale. And beyond the scale of organic
life into artificial life and beyond, the
"familiarity" of a glider or oscillator in the
GameO'Life or the braided rings of Saturn, even
less significant but not zero? The Potency-scale
seems to be something like *agency* which feels
absolute for most of us except Robert Sapolsky
while the *agency* of an electron or neutrino
seems registered at *absolute zero*, though the
Quantum Consciousness folks maybe put it at max
and our own more an illusive projection of that?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The idea of "collective individuation" (e.g.
mashup of Eleanor Ostrom's collectives and Jung's
individuation) suggests that perception,
cognition, intelligence, even consciousness may
well be a collective phenomena. Our organs,
tissues, cells, organelles, macromolecules, CHON++
molecules, atoms, baryons/fermions, quarks,
strings, branes are on a loose hierarchy of
diminishing Familiarity-Consciousness and
Potency-Consciousness. I'm more interested
(these days) in the emergent collective
consciousness of the noosphere and perhaps the
symbiotic culture of humanity and
life-at-all-scales (SCHLAAS?) it feels wild and
science-fictiony to assert that earth's biosphere
has already (in the last 150 years) conjured a
nervous system, a global-brain (ala Francis
Heylighen: Global Brain Institute)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a href="https://globalbraininstitute.org/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://globalbraininstitute.org/</a>
with "our own" Bollen, Joslyn, Rodriguez still on
the Board of Technical Advisors. I scoffed at
this somewhat 25 years ago (mostly because of the
hubris of "Global" and "Brain").<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>OK Nick, so not "baby steps" more like a
hyper-baby's mad dash through an obstacle course or
maybe a pentathalon? I tried shunting all this to
George Tremblay IVo but he referred me to Gussie
Tumbleroot who cheered me on on my careening
ideational orbits. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Gurgle,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal">--
Russ Abbott
<br>
Professor
Emeritus,
Computer
Science<br>
California
State
University,
Los Angeles<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at
9:30<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM
Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Glen, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is a test to
illustrate somethiing about Gmail to Nick.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at
4:37<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On July 9, 2024
2:04:29 PM PDT, Prof David West
<<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Maybe
I should not be replying, as I
do believe my dogs (and your
cat if you have one) are
conscious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
have not experienced a Vulcan
Mind-Meld with either of my
dogs, so I cannot say with
certainty they are conscious—I
must infer it from
observations:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">1-
interactions with other dogs
would seem to indicate they
"remember" past interactions
and do not require the same
butt-sniffing protocol with
dogs they have met at the park
frequently. Also they seem to
remember who plays with who
and who doesn't. "That ball is
not mine, this one is."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">2-they
modify their behavior
depending on the tenor,
sharpness, and volume of
barks, ear positions, tail
wagging differences, by the
other dogs; e.g., "that's
enough."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">3-They
do not communicate to me in
English, but seem to accept
communication from me in that
language—not trained responses
to commands, but "listening to
conversations" between myself
and Mary and reacting to words
(e.g., dog park) that are
exchanged in those
conversations. Mary and I are
totally sedentary and speaking
in conversational tone, so
pretty sure there we are not
sending 'signals' akin to
training words, training tone
of voice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">4-they
seem to remember trauma, (one
of our dogs spent three days
with dead owner before anyone
knew the owner was deceased
and will bite if anyone tries
to forcefully remove him from
my (current bonded owner)
presence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">5-seek
"psychological comfort" by
crawling into my bed and
sleeping on my shoulder when
the thunderstorm comes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><u><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">All of these are
grounded in
anthropomorphism—long
considered a deadly
error by ethologists.</span></u></i></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> (Some contemporary
ethologists are exploring
accepting and leveraging this
"error" to extend our
understanding of animal
behavior.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul
9, 2024, at 2:54 PM, Nicholas
Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="m_1740444598298868069m_-9126503415537066979m_6731191525240660294m_3416684508796851780qt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I
find all the ancillary
considerations raised on the
original thread extremely
interesting, I would like
to reopen the discussion of
Conscious as a Mystery and
ask that those that join it
stay close to the question
of what consciousness is and
how we know it when we see
it. Baby Steps. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where
were we? I think I was
asking Jochen, and perhaps
Peitr and anybody else who
thought that animals were
not conscious (i.e., not
aware of their own
awareness) what basis they
had in experience for
thinking that.. One
offering for such an
experience is the absence of
language in animals.
Because my cat cannot
describe his experience in
words, he cannot be
conscious. This requires
the following syllogism:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nothing
that does not employ a
language (or two?) is
conscious.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Animals
(with ;the possible
exception of signing apes)
do not employ languages.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ergo,
Animals are not conscious. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I was
trying to find out the basis
for the first premise. How
do we know that there are no
non-linguistic beings that
are not conscious. I hope
we could rule out the
answer,"because they are
non-linguistic", both in
its strictly tautological
or merely circular form. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is
a closely related syllogism
which we also need to
explore:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All
language using beings are
conscious.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">George
Peter Tremblay IV is a
language-using being.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">George
Peter Tremblay IV is
conscious. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Both are
valid syllogisms. But where
do the premises come from.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - /
...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- ---
.-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="gmailsignatureprefix">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz<br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
505 670-9918 <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Research: <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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