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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Nick -</div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(of course) I've larded up my usual
style of response below (maybe only for my own need to "express"
the buildup of mental-pus that comes with everything I hear here
and elsewhere) but to save you (and anyone else who cares) the
burden of parsing a few dozen lines of back-and-forth, I offer the
punchline. If you are curious about how I came to said (vaguely)
concise punchline you can read the rest after the <horizontal
line> element below:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">A) Can you recognize that there is a
spectrum/continuum of things you would acknowledge as "conscious"
between the two extrema (perhaps) of a (presumably apex-complex)
human/cephalopod/cetacean and that of a quark or a brane or a
string-loop or some abstract monad? B) if yes, what are the
implications of this? or C) why does quantizing "conscioiusness"
into "humans like me" and "every other bit of life" feel
necessary, useful or appealing?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Steve</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">If FriAM typical discourse is the
Thunderstorm, is this a (weak) cuddle?<br>
</div>
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<div>Steve, <br>
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<div>The scale of your response alone suggests that it cannot be
baby steps. <br>
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<p>Thus recognizing it was more of a baby (naive) pentathalon (long,
arduous and multi-modal) hellride of a traverse through the
implied space.</p>
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<div>I guess I am proposing a method here, one inn we work
outward from an evocative experience to explore our
understandings of contraversial concepts, and that we do it in
relatively short bursts. <br>
</div>
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</blockquote>
yes, let us extrude short strands of noodle and see how they
criss-cross.<br>
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<div><b><i>Dusty comes to cuddle with David when she hears
thunder.</i></b></div>
<div><b><i>Does Dusty love David?</i></b></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Dave (or does he self-identify as David?) loves Dusty and finds
Dusty's cuddling sufficiently similar/familiar to his own cuddling
to attribute it to love if he is in the mood to do so.<br>
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<div>If yes, what else would you expect Dusty to do with
respect to David. given you have made that attribution.<br>
</div>
<div>If no, what more would have Dusty have to do, before you
would make such an attribution.</div>
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</blockquote>
Qualified yes... Dusty could cower under the bed, leaving Dave to
choose to coax Dusty out and cuddle Dusty, giving Dusty the "love"
or at least comfort which Dave would offer as the closest
cross-species expression of love he knows how to offer in this
moment. Dave loves Dusty, Dusty dog-loves Dave. They are
reciprocal but asymmetric in quality, even if either would give
their lives for the other? <br>
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<div>I would like to respond to an inference that there is
something patronizing about my insisting on a method, as if I
think you need thought-therapy and I am the guy to give it. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
If in fact you were to have intended (consciously or not) as
patronizing, I take it as an gesture of love, of filial empathy, of
generous guidance from someone who has been around at least as many
trees as I have... I definitely need or seek thought/spiritual
therapy/guaidance from every quarter, including this one.<br>
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<div>In reply, I only would say that if somebody were willing to
ask me short, to-the-point questions about my thinking on any
matter and explore carefully my answers, I would eternally
grateful. I might even cuddle with them in a thunderstorm.</div>
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<p>I would choose to give you this level of fine-grain attention
around your fascination with vortices in the context of
meteorology (and other domains) more than this domain, but if this
is the one you prefer (for the moment), let me ask a short,
three-part but to-the-point question (and leave it to you to
ignore the fecundly laden pregnant assumptions hidden by the
implied simplicity of the construction): <br>
</p>
<p><u>A) Can you recognize that there is a spectrum/continuum of
things you would acknowledge as "conscious" between the two
extrema (perhaps) of a (presumably apex-complex)
human/cephalopod/cetacean and that of a quark or a brane or a
string-loop or some abstract monad? B) if yes, what are the
implications of this? or C) why does quantizing
"conscioiusness" into "humans like me" and "every other bit of
life" feel necessary, useful or appealing?</u></p>
<p> Steve <br>
</p>
<p>Steve<br>
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<div>NIck <br>
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<div>Nick <br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at
4:05 PM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>I'm glad you acknowledged (in another branch of this
thread?) the "grumpiness" aspect of your
initiation/participation in this thread. Your analogy
around thought/feeling "expression" and that of pimple
popping is in fact very apt if a bit graphic. I do think
many of us want this apparently deeply thorny/paradoxical
problem to be easier than it is? And the plethora of
complexly subtle dis/mis-agreements on language around
consciousness, intelligence, cognition, (self) awareness,
qualia complicates that yet more. <br>
</p>
<p>I don't know if my own baby-steps are helpful, given that
my background/perspective might align more with DaveW than
most others here (I'm very sympathetic with a
pan-consciousness perspective)? maybe it parses as
baby-babble more than baby-steps...<br>
</p>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I
missed most of this (and related) threads but am
surprised at where this seems to be going. I always
associated consciousness with subjective experience
and not necessarily with self awareness. The "hard
problem of consciousness" is qualia, not
self-awareness. No? An AI agent cannot
understand language on anything other than a
superficial basis because it has no idea what, for
example "wet," means. Nevertheless, it will be quite
good at stringing words together that say coherent
things about wetness. An AI agent has no <i>idea </i>about
anything. At the same time, an AI agent will be quite
good at creating coherent statements about very many
things. Just because an AI agent is able to create
coherent statements does not mean that those
statements reflect the agent's ideas--since it has no
ideas.</div>
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<p>Russ's point here is a good pivot point for me in this
conversation if it is possible to make the pivot. It may
not be. <br>
</p>
<p>Knowing and Knowing-About:</p>
<blockquote>
<p> I use the former to be the quality of qualia... not
easily formalizeable nor quantifiable nor with obvious
models which are not intrinsically subjective.
"Knowing-About" is for me reserved for the formalized
models of "facts about the world and relations between
ideas" and when I say "formalized" I don't preclude
storytelling or the highly vilified "just so stories".
<br>
</p>
<p>Formalized mathematical, statistical, logical models
with digital computer simulations (or analog electronic,
mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic "circuits" or
"systems") are "knowing about"... a steam train for
example embodies "knowing about" converting carbon-fuel
into linear motion across long distances, carrying heavy
loads by way of many repeatable mechanisms... the
implementation and operation of such a device/system is
a "proof" in some sense of the design. <br>
</p>
<p> On top of that design/system are other design/systems
(say the logic of Railroad Robber Baronages) upon which
yet other systems (say Industrial-revolution era
proto-hyper-capitalism) on top of which rides
trans-global corporatism and nationalism in their own
"gyre and gimbal" with a in intra-stellar and
eventually inter-stellar variation in the sense of
Asimov's Foundation and Empire or perhaps for the youth
culture here (under 60?) George Lucas' Star Wars Empire
or Roddenberry's Star Trek Federation vs ??? <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Consciousness:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>A the lowest level consciousness or perhaps
proto-consciousness registers for me as "having a model
of the world useful for guiding behaviour toward
surviving/thriving/reproducing/collectivizing". This
permeates all of life from somewhere down at the
single-celled bacteria/archaea/fungi/phyto-thingies/ up
to and through vertebrates/mammals/hominids/sapiens <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>On the reflection of whether my cat or dog, or the
hummingbirds outside my window or the mice trying to
sneak back into my house have "consciousness", or even
more pointedly the mosquito I slapped into a blood (my
blood by the way) spot on my forearm last night, have
"consciousness"... while each of these appear to have
a "consciousness" I know it to be variously more or less
familiar to my own. My elaborate (unfettered?)
imagination allows me to make up (just so?) stories
about how cetaceans, cephalapods, jellyfish all
variously have aspects of their "consciousness' that I
could (do?) recognize (empathize with?). So I would
want a multivalued function with at least two simple
scalars: Familiarity-to-Me(Conscioiusness) and
Potency-of(Consciousness), pick your scale... my
identical twin or maybe conjoined twin might max out on
the first scale while a nematode or a bacterium might
trail off toward nil on the first AND second scale. And
beyond the scale of organic life into artificial life
and beyond, the "familiarity" of a glider or oscillator
in the GameO'Life or the braided rings of Saturn, even
less significant but not zero? The Potency-scale seems
to be something like *agency* which feels absolute for
most of us except Robert Sapolsky while the *agency* of
an electron or neutrino seems registered at *absolute
zero*, though the Quantum Consciousness folks maybe put
it at max and our own more an illusive projection of
that?<br>
</p>
<p>The idea of "collective individuation" (e.g. mashup of
Eleanor Ostrom's collectives and Jung's individuation)
suggests that perception, cognition, intelligence, even
consciousness may well be a collective phenomena. Our
organs, tissues, cells, organelles, macromolecules,
CHON++ molecules, atoms, baryons/fermions, quarks,
strings, branes are on a loose hierarchy of diminishing
Familiarity-Consciousness and Potency-Consciousness.
I'm more interested (these days) in the emergent
collective consciousness of the noosphere and perhaps
the symbiotic culture of humanity and life-at-all-scales
(SCHLAAS?) it feels wild and science-fictiony to
assert that earth's biosphere has already (in the last
150 years) conjured a nervous system, a global-brain
(ala Francis Heylighen: <a rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Global Brain Institute)</a></p>
<p><a href="https://globalbraininstitute.org/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://globalbraininstitute.org/</a>
with "our own" Bollen, Joslyn, Rodriguez still on the
Board of Technical Advisors. I scoffed at this
somewhat 25 years ago (mostly because of the hubris of
"Global" and "Brain")<a rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">.</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p><a rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">OK Nick, so
not "baby steps" more like a hyper-baby's mad dash
through an obstacle course or maybe a pentathalon? I
tried shunting all this to George Tremblay IVo but he
referred me to Gussie Tumbleroot who cheered me on on my
careening ideational orbits. <br>
</a></p>
<p><a rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">Gurgle,</a></p>
<p><a rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"> - Steve<br>
</a></p>
<p><u><br>
</u></p>
<p><u><br>
</u></p>
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</u></font><span>
</span>-- Russ
Abbott
<br>
Professor
Emeritus,
Computer
Science<br>
California
State
University,
Los Angeles<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024
at 9:30 AM Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div dir="ltr">Glen,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a test to illustrate somethiing
about Gmail to Nick.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9,
2024 at 4:37 PM glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div>
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<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085</a><br>
<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">On July 9, 2024 2:04:29 PM
PDT, Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
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<div style="font-family:Arial">Maybe I
should not be replying, as I do believe
my dogs (and your cat if you have one)
are conscious.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">I have not
experienced a Vulcan Mind-Meld with
either of my dogs, so I cannot say with
certainty they are conscious—I must
infer it from observations:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">1-
interactions with other dogs would seem
to indicate they "remember" past
interactions and do not require the same
butt-sniffing protocol with dogs they
have met at the park frequently. Also
they seem to remember who plays with who
and who doesn't. "That ball is not mine,
this one is."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">2-they
modify their behavior depending on the
tenor, sharpness, and volume of barks,
ear positions, tail wagging differences,
by the other dogs; e.g., "that's
enough."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">3-They do
not communicate to me in English, but
seem to accept communication from me in
that language—not trained responses to
commands, but "listening to
conversations" between myself and Mary
and reacting to words (e.g., dog park)
that are exchanged in those
conversations. Mary and I are totally
sedentary and speaking in conversational
tone, so pretty sure there we are not
sending 'signals' akin to training
words, training tone of voice.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">4-they seem
to remember trauma, (one of our dogs
spent three days with dead owner before
anyone knew the owner was deceased and
will bite if anyone tries to forcefully
remove him from my (current bonded
owner) presence.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">5-seek
"psychological comfort" by crawling into
my bed and sleeping on my shoulder when
the thunderstorm comes.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><b><i><u>All
of these are grounded in
anthropomorphism—long considered a
deadly error by ethologists.</u></i></b>
(Some contemporary ethologists are
exploring accepting and leveraging this
"error" to extend our understanding of
animal behavior.)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
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<div>On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, at 2:54 PM,
Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
id="m_-9126503415537066979m_6731191525240660294m_3416684508796851780qt">
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<div>While I find all the ancillary
considerations raised on the
original thread extremely
interesting, I would like to reopen
the discussion of Conscious as a
Mystery and ask that those that join
it stay close to the question of
what consciousness is and how we
know it when we see it. Baby
Steps. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where were we? I think I was
asking Jochen, and perhaps Peitr and
anybody else who thought that
animals were not conscious (i.e.,
not aware of their own awareness)
what basis they had in experience
for thinking that.. One offering
for such an experience is the
absence of language in animals.
Because my cat cannot describe his
experience in words, he cannot be
conscious. This requires the
following syllogism:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nothing that does not employ a
language (or two?) is conscious.<br>
</div>
<div>Animals (with ;the possible
exception of signing apes) do not
employ languages.<br>
</div>
<div>Ergo, Animals are not conscious. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I was trying to find out the
basis for the first premise. How do
we know that there are no
non-linguistic beings that are not
conscious. I hope we could rule out
the answer,"because they are
non-linguistic", both in its
strictly tautological or merely
circular form. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is a closely related
syllogism which we also need to
explore:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All language using beings are
conscious.<br>
</div>
<div>George Peter Tremblay IV is a
language-using being.<br>
</div>
<div>George Peter Tremblay IV is
conscious. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Both are valid syllogisms. But
where do the premises come from.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick<br>
</div>
</div>
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FRIAM-COMIC <a
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1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Frank Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz<br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
505 670-9918
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Research: <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a></div>
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-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
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<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
-.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
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<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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