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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/12/24 1:10 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:<br>
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<div>Yann Lecun points out that an LLM will take the same number
of steps to construct its response to any input. So, in
principle, an LLM can't respond to any question that requires
more than a fixed finite number of steps.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://medium.com/towards-data-science/prompt-engineering-for-cognitive-flexibility-44e490e3473d"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://medium.com/towards-data-science/prompt-engineering-for-cognitive-flexibility-44e490e3473d</a></p>
<p>deep in the heart of this article is an interesting play off
between endogenous (model) and exogenous (human-prompter)
structure I haven't followed any references yet but appreciate
that there are folks doing these types of experimentation...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGkQki7d7LgTxdGGMskCWj--F86FsFVmKyfYqPOZzMOsieGmAw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div><br>
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<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">-- Russ</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 12, 2024, 10:19 AM
Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">What
questions can’t a LLM in principle respond? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And
you may ask yourself, “Well, how did I get here?” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And
you may ask yourself, “How do I work this?”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Thompson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 12, 2024 10:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Is consciousness a
mystery? (used to be "mystery...deeper".T</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with you that your two
conditions</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:30.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:11.0pt">i</span><b><i><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">f 1) it had continuous
real time training and 2) the training was
coupled to the physical world through an array
of sensors.</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:30.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">necessary
for a system to be conscious. but unless you assert
these conditions define a conscious system, you
leave begging the question of what sort of
experiences would lead you to assert that such a
system is conscious. If, on the other hand, you do
take these condition to be defining, then the
statement that such a system is conscious is a
tautology, without empirical implication. </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 12:50<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Some supercomputer
networks an effective radix of 64. Blue
Gene Q had five-dimensional real torus for
connectivity. These network fabrics are
typically autonomous remote DMA systems that
are configured so that processors do not
have to intervene in data transfers. <br>
<br>
Extreme ultraviolet lithography systems can
fabricate 100 layers for a digital
processor. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
It seems to me a LLM would have a sort of
consciousness if 1) it had continuous real
time training and 2) the training was
coupled to the physical world through an
array of sensors. </span></p>
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windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 12, 2024 9:00
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Is
consciousness a mystery? (used to be
"mystery...deeper".T</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Two
separate responses:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">first
to Steve—Personally, I do believe in the
spectrum of "consciousness" you suggest
with, perhaps a nuance. One contributor
tot he spectrum is simply quantity; a
quanta has 1 'bit' of consciousness, an
octopus has </span><span
class="m_-5183659040317347064m8392938402309592691size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">Domegegemegrottebyte
(real thing according to Wikipedia)
'bits'. A more significant contributor
is "organization." Molecules with
differing numbers of atoms of the same
elements, organized differently, have
very different properties and behaviors.
A human and an octopus might have the
same number of bits of consciousness,
but the organization of those bits (in
an N-dimensional space) is radically
different.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_-5183659040317347064m8392938402309592691size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">
This means it may be possible to say
that some threshold quantity and and
organization results in entities being
included in the set of generically
conscious things, it is unlikely we will
ever be able to say that
Consciousness-Human is identical to or
even similar to Consciousness-octopus.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_-5183659040317347064m8392938402309592691size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">BTW:
much of my antipathy to AI claims arises
from this perspective. A machine very
well might have the requisite number of
'bits' of consciousness from the
material of which the embodying machine
is composed (and the fact that every 1/0
bit of the executing code has a 'bit' of
consciousness) and those bits will be
'organized' sufficiently to join the
generic set; but machine consciousness
will never equate to human
consciousness. My objections to machine
"intelligence" comes from the fact that
machines do not have the N-dimensional
organization of humans or octopi.</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">to
Nick—</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
Beware blatant anthropomorphism (applied
to both Dave and Dusty)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dave
is sleepy and calm.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dusty
is anxious and afraid.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dusty
crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds
reassurance and security.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dave
is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off
bed.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dave
senses Dusty's need for reassurance and
rests his arm across her back and lets her
stay as she is.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dusty
relaxes and goes to sleep.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Love
is not present in this transaction, unless
you presume that a series of prior
interactions created a kind of meta-state
of Lovingness between the two and absent
that state the interactions and
'feelings; as presented would not have
occurred. But, perhaps Dave is just an
(occasionally) good Buddhist showing Dusty
the same respect he would express to any
living being?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, at
7:02 PM, steve smith wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="m_-5183659040317347064m_8392938402309592691qt">
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick -</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(of course) I've larded
up my usual style of response below (maybe
only for my own need to "express" the
buildup of mental-pus that comes with
everything I hear here and elsewhere) but
to save you (and anyone else who cares)
the burden of parsing a few dozen lines of
back-and-forth, I offer the punchline. If
you are curious about how I came to said
(vaguely) concise punchline you can read
the rest after the <horizontal line>
element below:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A) Can you recognize
that there is a spectrum/continuum of
things you would acknowledge as
"conscious" between the two extrema
(perhaps) of a (presumably apex-complex)
human/cephalopod/cetacean and that of a
quark or a brane or a string-loop or some
abstract monad? B) if yes, what are the
implications of this? or C) why does
quantizing "conscioiusness" into "humans
like me" and "every other bit of life"
feel necessary, useful or appealing?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Steve</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If FriAM typical
discourse is the Thunderstorm, is this a
(weak) cuddle?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center">
<hr width="100%" size="1" align="center"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Steve,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The scale of your
response alone suggests that it cannot
be baby steps. </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Thus recognizing it was more of a baby
(naive) pentathalon (long, arduous and
multi-modal) hellride of a traverse through
the implied space.</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I guess I am
proposing a method here, one inn we
work outward from an evocative
experience to explore our
understandings of contraversial
concepts, and that we do it in
relatively short bursts. </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">yes, let us extrude
short strands of noodle and see how they
criss-cross.</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>Dusty comes
to cuddle with David when she
hears thunder.</i></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>Does Dusty
love David?</i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave (or does he
self-identify as David?) loves Dusty and
finds Dusty's cuddling sufficiently
similar/familiar to his own cuddling to
attribute it to love if he is in the mood
to do so.</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If yes, what else
would you expect Dusty to do with
respect to David. given you have made
that attribution.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If no, what more
would have Dusty have to do, before
you would make such an attribution.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Qualified yes...
Dusty could cower under the bed, leaving
Dave to choose to coax Dusty out and
cuddle Dusty, giving Dusty the "love" or
at least comfort which Dave would offer as
the closest cross-species expression of
love he knows how to offer in this
moment. Dave loves Dusty, Dusty dog-loves
Dave. They are reciprocal but asymmetric
in quality, even if either would give
their lives for the other? </p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to
respond to an inference that there is
something patronizing about my
insisting on a method, as if I think
you need thought-therapy and I am the
guy to give it.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If in fact you were to
have intended (consciously or not) as
patronizing, I take it as an gesture of
love, of filial empathy, of generous
guidance from someone who has been around
at least as many trees as I have... I
definitely need or seek thought/spiritual
therapy/guaidance from every quarter,
including this one.</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In reply, I only
would say that if somebody were
willing to ask me short, to-the-point
questions about my thinking on any
matter and explore carefully my
answers, I would eternally grateful.
I might even cuddle with them in a
thunderstorm.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I would choose to give you this level of
fine-grain attention around your fascination
with vortices in the context of meteorology
(and other domains) more than this domain,
but if this is the one you prefer (for the
moment), let me ask a short, three-part but
to-the-point question (and leave it to you
to ignore the fecundly laden pregnant
assumptions hidden by the implied simplicity
of the construction): </p>
<p><u>A) Can you recognize that there is a
spectrum/continuum of things you would
acknowledge as "conscious" between the two
extrema (perhaps) of a (presumably
apex-complex) human/cephalopod/cetacean
and that of a quark or a brane or a
string-loop or some abstract monad? B) if
yes, what are the implications of this?
or C) why does quantizing "conscioiusness"
into "humans like me" and "every other bit
of life" feel necessary, useful or
appealing?</u></p>
<p> Steve</p>
<p>Steve</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">NIck</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 11,
2024 at 4:05<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
steve smith <<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor currentcolor
rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p>Nick -</p>
<p>I'm glad you acknowledged (in
another branch of this thread?) the
"grumpiness" aspect of your
initiation/participation in this
thread. Your analogy around
thought/feeling "expression" and
that of pimple popping is in fact
very apt if a bit graphic. I do
think many of us want this
apparently deeply thorny/paradoxical
problem to be easier than it is?
And the plethora of complexly subtle
dis/mis-agreements on language
around consciousness, intelligence,
cognition, (self) awareness, qualia
complicates that yet more. </p>
<p>I don't know if my own baby-steps
are helpful, given that my
background/perspective might align
more with DaveW than most others
here (I'm very sympathetic with a
pan-consciousness perspective)?
maybe it parses as baby-babble more
than baby-steps...</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
missed most of this (and
related) threads but am
surprised at where this
seems to be going. I always
associated consciousness
with subjective experience
and not necessarily with
self awareness. The "hard
problem of consciousness" is
qualia, not self-awareness.
No? An AI agent cannot
understand language on
anything other than a
superficial basis because it
has no idea what, for
example "wet," means.
Nevertheless, it will be
quite good at stringing
words together that say
coherent things about
wetness. An AI agent has no
<i>idea </i>about anything.
At the same time, an AI
agent will be quite good at
creating coherent statements
about very many things. Just
because an AI agent is able
to create coherent
statements does not mean
that those
statements reflect the
agent's ideas--since it has
no ideas.</span></p>
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</blockquote>
<p>Russ's point here is a good pivot
point for me in this conversation if
it is possible to make the pivot.
It may not be. </p>
<p>Knowing and Knowing-About:</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p> I use the former to be the
quality of qualia... not easily
formalizeable nor quantifiable nor
with obvious models which are not
intrinsically subjective.
"Knowing-About" is for me reserved
for the formalized models of
"facts about the world and
relations between ideas" and when
I say "formalized" I don't
preclude storytelling or the
highly vilified "just so
stories". </p>
<p>Formalized mathematical,
statistical, logical models with
digital computer simulations (or
analog electronic, mechanical,
hydraulic, pneumatic "circuits" or
"systems") are "knowing
about"... a steam train for
example embodies "knowing about"
converting carbon-fuel into linear
motion across long distances,
carrying heavy loads by way of
many repeatable mechanisms...
the implementation and operation
of such a device/system is a
"proof" in some sense of the
design. </p>
<p> On top of that design/system are
other design/systems (say the
logic of Railroad Robber
Baronages) upon which yet other
systems (say Industrial-revolution
era proto-hyper-capitalism) on top
of which rides trans-global
corporatism and nationalism in
their own "gyre and gimbal" with
a in intra-stellar and eventually
inter-stellar variation in the
sense of Asimov's Foundation and
Empire or perhaps for the youth
culture here (under 60?) George
Lucas' Star Wars Empire or
Roddenberry's Star Trek Federation
vs ??? </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Consciousness:</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>A the lowest level consciousness
or perhaps proto-consciousness
registers for me as "having a
model of the world useful for
guiding behaviour toward
surviving/thriving/reproducing/collectivizing".
This permeates all of life from
somewhere down at the
single-celled
bacteria/archaea/fungi/phyto-thingies/
up to and through
vertebrates/mammals/hominids/sapiens </p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>On the reflection of whether my
cat or dog, or the hummingbirds
outside my window or the mice
trying to sneak back into my house
have "consciousness", or even more
pointedly the mosquito I slapped
into a blood (my blood by the way)
spot on my forearm last night,
have "consciousness"... while
each of these appear to have a
"consciousness" I know it to be
variously more or less familiar to
my own. My elaborate
(unfettered?) imagination allows
me to make up (just so?) stories
about how cetaceans, cephalapods,
jellyfish all variously have
aspects of their "consciousness'
that I could (do?) recognize
(empathize with?). So I would
want a multivalued function with
at least two simple scalars:
Familiarity-to-Me(Conscioiusness)
and Potency-of(Consciousness),
pick your scale... my identical
twin or maybe conjoined twin might
max out on the first scale while a
nematode or a bacterium might
trail off toward nil on the first
AND second scale. And beyond the
scale of organic life into
artificial life and beyond, the
"familiarity" of a glider or
oscillator in the GameO'Life or
the braided rings of Saturn, even
less significant but not zero?
The Potency-scale seems to be
something like *agency* which
feels absolute for most of us
except Robert Sapolsky while the
*agency* of an electron or
neutrino seems registered at
*absolute zero*, though the
Quantum Consciousness folks maybe
put it at max and our own more an
illusive projection of that?</p>
<p>The idea of "collective
individuation" (e.g. mashup of
Eleanor Ostrom's collectives and
Jung's individuation) suggests
that perception, cognition,
intelligence, even consciousness
may well be a collective
phenomena. Our organs, tissues,
cells, organelles, macromolecules,
CHON++ molecules, atoms,
baryons/fermions, quarks, strings,
branes are on a loose hierarchy
of diminishing
Familiarity-Consciousness and
Potency-Consciousness. I'm more
interested (these days) in the
emergent collective consciousness
of the noosphere and perhaps the
symbiotic culture of humanity and
life-at-all-scales (SCHLAAS?) it
feels wild and science-fictiony to
assert that earth's biosphere has
already (in the last 150 years)
conjured a nervous system, a
global-brain (ala Francis
Heylighen: Global Brain Institute)</p>
<p><a
href="https://globalbraininstitute.org/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://globalbraininstitute.org/</a>
with "our own" Bollen, Joslyn,
Rodriguez still on the Board of
Technical Advisors. I scoffed at
this somewhat 25 years ago (mostly
because of the hubris of "Global"
and "Brain").</p>
</blockquote>
<p>OK Nick, so not "baby steps" more
like a hyper-baby's mad dash through
an obstacle course or maybe a
pentathalon? I tried shunting all
this to George Tremblay IVo but he
referred me to Gussie Tumbleroot who
cheered me on on my careening
ideational orbits. </p>
<p>Gurgle,</p>
<p> - Steve</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">--
Russ Abbott
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Professor
Emeritus,
Computer
Science</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">California
State
University,
Los Angeles</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul
11, 2024 at 9:30<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM
Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor currentcolor
rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Glen,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is
a test to illustrate
somethiing about Gmail to
Nick.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue,
Jul 9, 2024 at 4:37<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor currentcolor
rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
July 9, 2024
2:04:29 PM PDT,
Prof David West
<<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
windowtext
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor
currentcolor
rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Maybe I should not be
replying, as I
do believe my
dogs (and your
cat if you
have one) are
conscious.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I have not experienced
a Vulcan
Mind-Meld with
either of my
dogs, so I
cannot say
with certainty
they are
conscious—I
must infer it
from
observations:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">1- interactions with
other dogs
would seem to
indicate they
"remember"
past
interactions
and do not
require the
same
butt-sniffing
protocol with
dogs they have
met at the
park
frequently.
Also they seem
to remember
who plays with
who and who
doesn't. "That
ball is not
mine, this one
is."</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">2-they modify their
behavior
depending on
the tenor,
sharpness, and
volume of
barks, ear
positions,
tail wagging
differences,
by the other
dogs; e.g.,
"that's
enough."</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">3-They do not
communicate to
me in English,
but seem to
accept
communication
from me in
that
language—not
trained
responses to
commands, but
"listening to
conversations"
between myself
and Mary and
reacting to
words (e.g.,
dog park) that
are exchanged
in those
conversations.
Mary and I are
totally
sedentary and
speaking in
conversational
tone, so
pretty sure
there we are
not sending
'signals' akin
to training
words,
training tone
of voice.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">4-they seem to remember
trauma, (one
of our dogs
spent three
days with dead
owner before
anyone knew
the owner was
deceased and
will bite if
anyone tries
to forcefully
remove him
from my
(current
bonded owner)
presence.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">5-seek "psychological
comfort" by
crawling into
my bed and
sleeping on my
shoulder when
the
thunderstorm
comes.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><i><u><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">All of these are
grounded in
anthropomorphism—long
considered a
deadly error
by
ethologists.</span></u></i></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> (Some contemporary
ethologists
are exploring
accepting and
leveraging
this "error"
to extend our
understanding
of animal
behavior.)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Tue, Jul 9,
2024, at 2:54
PM, Nicholas
Thompson wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="m_-5183659040317347064m_8392938402309592691qt-m_-9126503415537066979m_6731191525240660294m_3416684508796851780qt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">While
I find all
the ancillary
considerations
raised on the
original
thread
extremely
interesting,
I would like
to reopen the
discussion of
Conscious as a
Mystery and
ask that those
that join it
stay close to
the question
of what
consciousness
is and how we
know it when
we see it.
Baby Steps. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Where
were we? I
think I was
asking Jochen,
and perhaps
Peitr and
anybody else
who thought
that animals
were not
conscious
(i.e., not
aware of their
own
awareness)
what basis
they had in
experience for
thinking
that.. One
offering for
such an
experience is
the absence of
language in
animals.
Because my cat
cannot
describe his
experience in
words, he
cannot be
conscious.
This requires
the following
syllogism:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nothing
that does not
employ a
language (or
two?) is
conscious.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Animals
(with ;the
possible
exception of
signing apes)
do not employ
languages.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Ergo,
Animals are
not
conscious. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">But
I was trying
to find out
the basis for
the first
premise. How
do we know
that there are
no
non-linguistic
beings that
are not
conscious. I
hope we could
rule out the
answer,"because
they are
non-linguistic",
both in its
strictly
tautological
or merely
circular
form. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">There
is a closely
related
syllogism
which we also
need to
explore:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">All
language using
beings are
conscious.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">George
Peter Tremblay
IV is a
language-using
being.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">George
Peter Tremblay
IV is
conscious. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Both
are valid
syllogisms.
But where do
the premises
come from.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nick</p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_-5183659040317347064m8392938402309592691qt-gmailsignatureprefix">--</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank
Wimberly</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">140
Calle Ojo Feliz</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Santa
Fe, NM 87505</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">505
670-9918</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Research: <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a></p>
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<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></pre>
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<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...-
.- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p
Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to (un)subscribe
<a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017
thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru
6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<pre>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></pre>
<pre>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-..
.. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday
St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -..
/ -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
-.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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