<div dir="ltr">Oh, Barry. I forgot to ask you the threshold question. Do you agree that attempting to extend the zone of honest agreement is a worthy goal.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 3:00 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Without going backward in my conversation, you and I could add this new data to the data-pack on go on. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Let's go contrarian for a few strokes. can you think of things that your Dusty has done that are inconsistent with love.</div><div><br></div><div>Nick <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 1:23 PM Barry MacKichan <<a href="mailto:barry.mackichan@mackichan.com" target="_blank">barry.mackichan@mackichan.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><u></u>
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<p dir="auto">I feel permitted to barge in on this discussion, since my dog (well, our dog) is also named Dusty.</p>
<p dir="auto">Frequently, I look up from what I’m doing or reading, and he is in his chair looking at me, and we can spend several minutes with our eyes locked. I call it love; he doesn’t want to talk about it. I’ve read that this is common behavior, and that it results in an oxytocin kick to both participants. I think that chemical evidence is a good addition to the other data in this discussion. My starting assumption is that if a peptide is shared between species, the effects of that peptide probably share similar mechanisms. I.e., the simplest explanation is that if it affects me through emotions, the effect in my dog is probably through something very much like an emotion. I’ve never seen any evidence that this is <em>not</em> true.</p>
<p dir="auto">Concerning the list of consequences of a loving relationship at the end of your message, I would say all three are absolutely true. My wife had covid for the first time several months ago, and whenever she was in bed, both our dogs were there. When they see we are upset — a frequent occurrence in this election year — they will keep their eyes on us and stick with us until they are reassured that we are (sorta) OK. They sense emotions better than many humans I have known.</p>
<p dir="auto">When Dusty was a puppy, and I was out of town, my wife took him on a walk, off leash, in the arroyo and slipped and fell on the icy path. When she opened her eyes a few seconds later, Dusty had his nose right up against her face.</p>
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<p dir="auto">On 12 Jul 2024, at 12:59, Nicholas Thompson wrote:</p>
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<div>[Please, Friammers,, if you join this discussion, stay close to this or other closely related down-to-earth experiences.</div>
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<div>Dave, you offer as data:<br></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dave is sleepy and calm.<br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dusty is anxious and afraid.<br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dusty crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds reassurance and security.<br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dave is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off bed.<br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dave senses Dusty's need for reassurance and rests his arm across her back and lets her stay as she is.<br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1">Dusty relaxes and goes to sleep.</font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><b><font size="1"><br></font></b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2">You then offer the following guide to interpretation:<br></font></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><i><font size="1"><b>Love is not present in this transaction, unless you presume that a series of prior interactions created a kind of meta-state of Lovingness between the two<br></b></font></i></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2">I agree with you that love is a meta state in the sense that it is an arrangement of other behavioral states. So I will leave that alone. Having so stipulated, I think it is reasonable to say, on the basis of the data you set forth, that a meta-state of lovingness exists between you. (I would prefer to say you love one another, but partly in deference to SG, I will adopt your lingo.] To call your joint behavior loving is to perform an abduction. The test of an abduction is to examine the deductions that flow from it: <br></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2"><br></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2">So, if Dave and Dusty have a loving relationship, then, on my understanding, the following would be true:<br></font></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><font size="1"><i><b>You would protect one another against harm.</b></i></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><font size="1"><i><b>You would attend to one another if either was sick, injured, or depressed.</b></i></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px"><font size="1"><i><b>You would become uneasy if you were separated for an unexpectedly long time.</b></i></font></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2">Are these things true?</font></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial"><font size="2">Nick<br></font></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;text-align:left"><i><font size="1"><b><br></b></font></i></div>
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