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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Anthropomorphism is a modelling approach with a certain type of priors. These priors could prove to be false, but of course they would never be given this my dog we’re talking about. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 12, 2024 2:41 PM<br><b>To:</b> Marcus Daniels <marcus@snoutfarm.com>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>; thompnickson2 <thompnickson2@gmail.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>You describe a different set of behavioral interactions, and your interpretations of them, than the set I posed and Nick abducted from. Is that set sufficient for you to conclude mutual Love?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>if you gave an LLM the set of interactions, would it, "by itself," interpret them the same way? I.e., would the LLM be just as guilty of anthropomorphism as you are? Second order question, would the LLM Love your dog as you do?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jul 12, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>I can predict many of my dog’s state transitions. She wakes me up to go outside. With high probability, she will then go to her spot on the couch. Between 30 seconds and five minutes later she’ll determine if I have space for her. She doesn’t bother with sleeping people, but awake people she’ll spend time with. </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><br><span class=size>Walking on me is a clear indication of a desire to go for a walk. In the car it is predictive of hunger. Hurry up, get home! Staring at me when I’m seated after dinner is a definite request for a particular treat. </span><br><br><span class=size>Conversely, any usage of a jacket is a high probability signal to her a walk may be unfolding. I then predict her to grab a high value item in her mouth and mock me by running away with it. Blankets make fine displays of autonomy as they can be dragged around the house with enthusiasm.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Losing either side of this contract would be a disappointment to both of us. Our combined machine would stop working.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>All stuff a LLM could encode. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b></span><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><span class=size><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 12, 2024 10:38 AM</span><br><span class=size><b>To:</b> thompnickson2 <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><br><span class=size><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I will agree, mostly, with your abductions. However,</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>We have different conceptions of harm. Dusty growls at other dogs who come to me at the dog park. Maybe to 'protect' me, maybe from 'jealousy'. Dusty does not recognize the leash as protection from harm.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Mutual attending is definitely true and, for me, the proper foundation for inferring the meta-state of love.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Separation is an anxiety for Dusty and entails more than absence; e.g., where's my dinner. Separation does not cause anxiety for me, but definitely a "longing" and an awareness of the absence.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>helpful?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>On Fri, Jul 12, 2024, at 12:19 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt-qt><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>Oh, and. do you now agree that the relation is loving, or, what additional coditions would you care to add to make that attribution a comfortable one for you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>N<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 12:59<span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span>PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>[Please, Friammers,, if you join this discussion, stay close to this or other closely related down-to-earth experiences.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>Dave, you offer as data:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dave is sleepy and calm.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dusty is anxious and afraid.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dusty crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds reassurance and security.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dave is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off bed.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dave senses Dusty's need for reassurance and rests his arm across her back and lets her stay as she is.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dusty relaxes and goes to sleep.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>You then offer the following guide to interpretation:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Love is not present in this transaction, unless you presume that a series of prior interactions created a kind of meta-state of Lovingness between the two</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I agree with you that love is a meta state in the sense that it is an arrangement of other behavioral states. So I will leave that alone. Having so stipulated, I think it is reasonable to say, on the basis of the data you set forth, that a meta-state of lovingness exists between you. (I would prefer to say you love one another, but partly in deference to SG, I will adopt your lingo.] To call your joint behavior loving is to perform an abduction. The test of an abduction is to examine the deductions that flow from it: </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>So, if Dave and Dusty have a loving relationship, then, on my understanding, the following would be true:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>You would protect one another against harm.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>You would attend to one another if either was sick, injured, or depressed.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>You would become uneasy if you were separated for an unexpectedly long time.</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Are these things true?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:30.0pt'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Attachments:</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>smime.p7s<o:p></o:p></li></ul></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>