<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, Marcus <br></div><div><br></div><div>Could you say a bit more about "going gangster", describe it in its detail and variation? <br></div><div><br></div><div>N<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 9:22 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg2642913247387539162"><div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class="m_2642913247387539162WordSection1"><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1"><li class="m_2642913247387539162MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">The dog sitter I used in Santa Fe had a video feed. I could see how Abby reacted to other people picking up their dogs using their video feed. She did not. When I picked-up Abby, she would throw her body at the plexiglass wall over and over. She did this every day.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_2642913247387539162MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">Now when I pick up Abby, other dogs are enthusiastic to see an arrival for a pick-up. However, this dog sitter has no plexiglass. Not until the last second do the dogs see who has arrived. When she sees their enthusiasm, she will sometime go gangster on those dogs. This is of course anti-social, but also strangely satisfying. <u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_2642913247387539162MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">Yes, the contented staring. <u></u><u></u></span></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Barry MacKichan <<a href="mailto:barry.mackichan@mackichan.com" target="_blank">barry.mackichan@mackichan.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, July 13, 2024 at 10:24 AM<br><b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I feel permitted to barge in on this discussion, since my dog (well, our dog) is also named Dusty.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Frequently, I look up from what I’m doing or reading, and he is in his chair looking at me, and we can spend several minutes with our eyes locked. I call it love; he doesn’t want to talk about it. I’ve read that this is common behavior, and that it results in an oxytocin kick to both participants. I think that chemical evidence is a good addition to the other data in this discussion. My starting assumption is that if a peptide is shared between species, the effects of that peptide probably share similar mechanisms. I.e., the simplest explanation is that if it affects me through emotions, the effect in my dog is probably through something very much like an emotion. I’ve never seen any evidence that this is <em><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">not</span></em> true.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Concerning the list of consequences of a loving relationship at the end of your message, I would say all three are absolutely true. My wife had covid for the first time several months ago, and whenever she was in bed, both our dogs were there. When they see we are upset — a frequent occurrence in this election year — they will keep their eyes on us and stick with us until they are reassured that we are (sorta) OK. They sense emotions better than many humans I have known.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">When Dusty was a puppy, and I was out of town, my wife took him on a walk, off leash, in the arroyo and slipped and fell on the icy path. When she opened her eyes a few seconds later, Dusty had his nose right up against her face.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On 12 Jul 2024, at 12:59, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(19,107,206);padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:3.75pt"><div id="m_26429132473875391628EBB3C60-1E93-4C56-B9A0-45B2771EC222"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">[Please, Friammers,, if you join this discussion, stay close to this or other closely related down-to-earth experiences.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dave, you offer as data:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dave is sleepy and calm.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dusty is anxious and afraid.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dusty crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds reassurance and security.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dave is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off bed.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dave senses Dusty's need for reassurance and rests his arm across her back and lets her stay as she is.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Dusty relaxes and goes to sleep.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">You then offer the following guide to interpretation:</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Love is not present in this transaction, unless you presume that a series of prior interactions created a kind of meta-state of Lovingness between the two</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">I agree with you that love is a meta state in the sense that it is an arrangement of other behavioral states. So I will leave that alone. Having so stipulated, I think it is reasonable to say, on the basis of the data you set forth, that a meta-state of lovingness exists between you. (I would prefer to say you love one another, but partly in deference to SG, I will adopt your lingo.] To call your joint behavior loving is to perform an abduction. The test of an abduction is to examine the deductions that flow from it: </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">So, if Dave and Dusty have a loving relationship, then, on my understanding, the following would be true:</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">You would protect one another against harm.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">You would attend to one another if either was sick, injured, or depressed.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">You would become uneasy if you were separated for an unexpectedly long time.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Are these things true?</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">Nick</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div style="margin-left:30pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(19,107,206);padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:3.75pt"><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(19,107,206)">-. --- - 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