<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree that each is conscious of each other.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Yes, the second one is tricky, so i will take it in parts.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Dave is conscious of Dave.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> 1) Naive but evident: bullet clips ear—immediate utterance, "<b><u>I'm</u></b> hit." (utterance is observable behavior)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> 2) Muddled: noise emanates between navel and spine, sometimes utterance is <b><u>I'm</u></b> hungry; sometimes "stomach empty," sometimes no utterance at all.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> 3) Contrarian: extended mediation using the Koan "Who Am I" with each posited answer rejected until no "I" remains. (A state of existence with zero differentiation between 'observer' and 'observed' // 'conscious' and 'conscious-of'.)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> 4) Meta: [various ways to achieve, but most blatant is LSD]: conscious/aware of consciousness and ITS-BEING-CONSCIOUS. (A program is aware/conscious of itself as ephemeral sequence of [voltage | voltage-not] ?)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Tricky bits:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> A-Cases 1) and 2) can quickly devolve into a kind of circular reasoning: dave is conscious of dave because dave seems to be conscious of dave; or some kind of argument by authority: dave is conscious of dave because Nick heard utterances that are interpretable as dave is conscious of dave; or, blaming language because of the centrality of the verb to-be.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Cases 3) and 4) represent the kind of point-of-departure I warned about earlier—excluded from the conversation because they are not shared, not logical, not "scientific."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Mon, Jul 15, 2024, at 11:43 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, Prof Dave n all,<br></div><div><br></div><div>I would like us to come back to this point:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-left:40px;"><i><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b>Is Dusty (Dave) conscious of Dave (Dusty).</b></span></i><br></div><div style="margin-left:40px;"><i><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b>Is Dusty (Dave) conscious of Dusty (Dave).</b></span></i><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Using our progress around the word Love, I feel like we ought to be able to agree on the first two propositions. We agree that the two particiants are consciouus of one another. </span><br></div></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">So, if I am correct about that, could we move on to dis cuss the second pair, whether each of the two is conscious of themself.</span><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">This is really truicky and, to be honest, I have no idea where it comes out.</span><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Nick</span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 12:59 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div>[Please, Friammers,, if you join this discussion, stay close to this or other closely related down-to-earth experiences.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Dave, you offer as data:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dave is sleepy and calm.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dusty is anxious and afraid.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dusty crawls onto Dave's shoulder and finds reassurance and security.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dave is tolerant and does not shove Dusty off bed.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dave senses Dusty's need for reassurance and rests his arm across her back and lets her stay as she is.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;">Dusty relaxes and goes to sleep.</span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><b><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"></span></b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">You then offer the following guide to interpretation:</span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><i><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b>Love is not present in this transaction, unless you presume that a
series of prior interactions created a kind of meta-state of Lovingness
between the two</b></span></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">I agree with you that love is a meta state in the sense that it is an arrangement of other behavioral states. So I will leave that alone. Having so stipulated, I think it is reasonable to say, on the basis of the data you set forth, that a meta-state of lovingness exists between you. (I would prefer to say you love one another, but partly in deference to SG, I will adopt your lingo.] To call your joint behavior loving is to perform an abduction. The test of an abduction is to examine the deductions that flow from it: </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">So, if Dave and Dusty have a loving relationship, then, on my understanding, the following would be true:</span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><i><b>You would protect one another against harm.</b></i></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><i><b>You would attend to one another if either was sick, injured, or depressed.</b></i></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><i><b>You would become uneasy if you were separated for an unexpectedly long time.</b></i></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Are these things true?</span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Nick</span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;margin-left:40px;text-align:left;"><i><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b></b></span></i><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>