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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>In the case of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the mirror. For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the mirror and be startled by the movement. Now she ignores it. If she sees me do something in the mirror, like put down an iPad, she tips her back to look at me to look at me – as if to see if anything is changing. I can’t defend the other perception. It is clear she has immediate visual discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Thompson<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Great. Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that seeming consists of?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>nick<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. While I don’t know she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between me in a mirror and me right in front of her. She no longer thinks it is another dog.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nick <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize their own odor in many tests.<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test</a><br><br><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Species | Mirror Self-Recognition |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Infants | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Monkeys | No |<br>| Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Magpies | Yes |<br>| Republicans | Mixed |<br>| Gorillas | Mixed |<br>| Orangutans | Yes |<br>| Pigeons | Mixed |<br>| Octopi | No |<br>| Dogs | No |<br>| Cats | No |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403</a>. <a href="https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf</a><br>EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Science</span></em>, 167(3914), 86-87. <a href="https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86" target="_blank">https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 98(10), 5937-5942.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593" target="_blank"> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 103(45), 17053-17057. <a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053" target="_blank">https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Stephen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>