<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:11.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. While I don\u2019t know she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between me in a mirror and me right in front of her. She no longer thinks it is another dog.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span>AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize their own odor in many tests.<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test</a><br><br><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Species | Mirror Self-Recognition |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Infants | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Monkeys | No |<br>| Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Magpies | Yes |<br>| Republicans | Mixed |<br>| Gorillas | Mixed |<br>| Orangutans | Yes |<br>| Pigeons | Mixed |<br>| Octopi | No |<br>| Dogs | No |<br>| Cats | No |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297\u2013305. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403</a>. <a href="https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf</a><br>EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Science</span></em>, 167(3914), 86-87. <a href="https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86" target="_blank">https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 98(10), 5937-5942.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593" target="_blank"> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." <em><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 103(45), 17053-17057. <a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053" target="_blank">https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-Stephen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>