<div dir="ltr"><div>I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I am beginning to sense method in my madness.</div><div><br></div><div>I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes something like this <br></div><div><br></div><div>We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is conscious. From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious, he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious beings do.</div><div><br></div><div>N<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 7:22 PM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hank my dog (with whom I have a loving relationship but who loves
and is loved my Mary) barks at the TV when a barking sound
emanates from it. If he sees a dog-figure cavorting on the screen
he barks more vigorously even if the barking sounds ceases. If he
sees *any* animal like figure on the TV he *may* bark at it,
depending on what else is going on in the room (or inside his
head) He even sometimes barks at little kid figures... but not
as much. <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><gallop> Next to the TV is what I call "bird TV"
something of a picture window where we have both hummingbird and
conventional bird feeders. He watches the birds but does not
bark at them. When they might fly into the window or toward it,
veering off, he sometimes alerts and charges but does not bark.
The other day he was barking out the window at the ground
vigorously... there was a 6' long red-racer snake staring back
at him/us which casually turned around and slithered off. He
only quit barking when it was no longer evident. He barks
directly into the window-pane at neighbors and vehicles at the
end of our drive and at the sound of sirens and 18 wheelers
engine-braking on the highway. The sound of his bark has to be
reflecting right back into his little ears but that doesnt' slow
him down. For a while he would hear his own bark resonating in
our steel spiral staircase which was a high pitched near-echo?
He would bark then turn around to see who was "barking?" behind
him, then satisfied turn around and bark at the window again,
rinse, repeat.... he did this off and on for months but now
seems entirely bored with it. If we make any noises
mistakeable for a bark (like a chair or table leg drug abruptly)
he barks in the general direction of the bark. We have a
lifesize photograph of his head with ears flying as he pops up
over our entry gate... we have shown it to him on the canvas as
well as displayed on the television. He is totally
uninterested. If we hold him up to the TV to see what he is
barking at more closely, he paws at the screen but ceases
barking when his sniffing self determines that the thing he is
barking at has no smell and cant be reached through the
glass.</gallop><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I still think he is acutely conscious and has a self-awareness,
but it probably isn't registered on the things we want to project
onto him... sight and sound matter for attention I think, but i
suspect smell is key to recognition? <br>
</p>
<p> Our cat (Cyd, with whom we both have a loving relationship but
who ignores most everything but food, especially her name) does
not have the slightest interest in anything on TV in a picture
with or without sound, or even through the window mostly
(hummingbirds 5 feet from her perch). Cats on TV are equally
uninteresting to her as anything else. I think she is as
conscious as Hank and fully self-aware, but in an even more
foreign sense to us than Hank. The Red Racer and the Fish in the
pond? Absolutely... but again, yet more foreign.</p>
<p>Hank (sleeping nearby as I type) presents his dreams a lot more
explicitely than Cyd... I think he is conscious and self-aware in
his dreams in a similar but completely different way as I am...
he seems to wake up alternatively excited or scared as
appropriate?<br>
</p>
<div>On 7/15/24 4:20 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">In the case
of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the
mirror. For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the
mirror and be startled by the movement. Now she ignores
it. If she sees me do something in the mirror, like put
down an iPad, she tips her back to look at me to look at me
– as if to see if anything is changing. I can’t defend
the other perception. It is clear she has immediate visual
discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas
Thompson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Great. Can you describe,in what ever
detail seems right, what that seeming consists of?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">nick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Mirror recognition (or
usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She
seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look
different. While I don’t know she is looking at
herself, she seems to understand the difference
between me in a mirror and me right in front of
her. She no longer thinks it is another dog.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love
Dave, and VV.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM
Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here
is an example If you play a dog's bark
back to him, does he respond as if it's
the bark of an intruder? <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If
not, that suggest some sort of self
recognition mechanism, given that the
bark I give sounds a heluva lot different
from the bark I would hear if if I were
the hearer of my own bark.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to
the self-recognition in mirror test
which dogs and cats fail (and some humans).
Dogs do recognize their own odor in many
tests.<br>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test</a><br>
<br>
<span>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>
| Species | Mirror Self-Recognition
|<br>
+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>
| Infants | Yes (18-24 months)
|<br>
| Monkeys | No
|<br>
| Chimps | Yes (2-3 years)
|<br>
| Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years)
|<br>
| Democrats | Yes (18-24 months)
|<br>
| Elephants | Yes (2-3 years)
|<br>
| Magpies | Yes
|<br>
| Republicans | Mixed
|<br>
| Gorillas | Mixed
|<br>
| Orangutans | Yes
|<br>
| Pigeons | Mixed
|<br>
| Octopi | No
|<br>
| Dogs | No
|<br>
| Cats | No
|<br>
+-----------------+---------------------------+</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Amsterdam,
B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before
age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4),
297–305. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403</a>. <a href="https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf</a><br>
EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees:
Self-recognition." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Science</span></em>,
167(3914), 86-87. <a href="https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86" target="_blank">https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Reiss,
D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror
self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A
case of cognitive convergence." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Proceedings
of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>,
98(10), 5937-5942.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593" target="_blank">
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Plotnik,
J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006).
"Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences</span></em>,
103(45), 17053-17057. <a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053" target="_blank">https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FWIW,
I don't consider self-awareness necessary for
consciousness - though it is an interesting
topic to me like theory-of-mind. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Stephen<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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