<div dir="ltr"><div>Great. Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that seeming consists of?</div><div><br></div><div>nick<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg5433556621248708440"><div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class="m_5433556621248708440WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She seems perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. While I don’t know she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between me in a mirror and me right in front of her. She no longer thinks it is another dog.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder? <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nick <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize their own odor in many tests.<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test</a><br><br><span style="font-family:"Courier New"">+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Species | Mirror Self-Recognition |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Infants | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Monkeys | No |<br>| Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Magpies | Yes |<br>| Republicans | Mixed |<br>| Gorillas | Mixed |<br>| Orangutans | Yes |<br>| Pigeons | Mixed |<br>| Octopi | No |<br>| Dogs | No |<br>| Cats | No |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403</a>. <a href="https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf</a><br>EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Science</span></em>, 167(3914), 86-87. <a href="https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86" target="_blank">https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 98(10), 5937-5942.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593" target="_blank"> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</span></em>, 103(45), 17053-17057. <a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053" target="_blank">https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">-Stephen<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
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