<div dir="ltr"><div>Nice. At this point on this thread, I am interested in your experiences of self-copnsciounss in others vs your description of self-consciousness in yourself..</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:17 PM Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond as if it's the bark of an intruder? <br></div><div>If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear if if I were the hearer of my own bark.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Nick </div><div><br>Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize their own odor in many tests.<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test</a><br><br><font face="monospace">+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Species | Mirror Self-Recognition |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+<br>| Infants | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Monkeys | No |<br>| Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) |<br>| Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) |<br>| Magpies | Yes |<br>| Republicans | Mixed |<br>| Gorillas | Mixed |<br>| Orangutans | Yes |<br>| Pigeons | Mixed |<br>| Octopi | No |<br>| Dogs | No |<br>| Cats | No |<br>+-----------------+---------------------------+</font><br></div><div><br></div><div>Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403</a>. <a href="https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf</a><br>EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." <em>Science</em>, 167(3914), 86-87.
<a rel="noreferrer" href="https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86" target="_blank">https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8</a></div><div>Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." <em>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</em>, 98(10), 5937-5942.<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593" target="_blank">
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398</a></div><div>Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in an Asian elephant." <em>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</em>, 103(45), 17053-17057.
<a href="https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053" target="_blank">https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053</a></div><div><br></div><div>FWIW,
I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind.
</div><div><br></div><div>-Stephen</div></div></div>
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