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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Ok, here’s another example. My dog paws at me when I’m sitting on the couch. At first it appeared to be an expression of affection. Then I realized what she really wanted: Move and give her the space. She did the same thing with her male sibling (a dog), and he would get rattled and walk away.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Thompson<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 16, 2024 9:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi, All,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Some;body on this thread suggested that I read the recent article on whale communication research in Hah-Vud Mag. It was interesting, but it left me screaming and beating the magazine with my fists in many places. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If anybody would like to chat about it, I am here for that. Two comments to poke the fire a bit:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If this is to be the first time we communicate with another species, what on earth have i been doing with my dog, all these years?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you want to understand an alien intelligence, you sure as hell don't start with human based categories. You start with a broader perspective and place both the human and the alien within it. Ethology got started because its predecessor, comparative psychology, was obsessed with imposing human categories on animals. Finding out what birdsong is actually doing has been slowed up for generations by the twin metaphors of music and language. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Beware lure of charismatic science. Just remember, charisma is a transaction between an individual and an audience in which the individual engages unspoken needs of the audience and the audience rewards him/her with notoriety Most humans are desperate to have their preconceptions confirmed. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>AAAAARGH!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>n<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-J.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><br><span class=gmailsignatureprefix>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>