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<p>an interesting article on the Pan-proto-consciousness ideas which
might be a little more palatable to some here than a more
traditional full-on PanConsciousness argument. <br>
</p>
<p>Psychology Today article: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-digital-self/202407/llms-and-the-curious-notion-of-panprotopsychism">Panprotoconsciousnes</a>s<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/16/24 12:21 PM, Jochen Fromm
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202407161822.46GIM7r7068743@ame3.swcp.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Since I am not a
native speaker my understanding of consciousness is probably a
bit different and less finely nuanced :-( For me the meaning
2) "Subjective consciousness" and 3) "Self-consciousness"
mentioned in this article are the most interesting ones</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/theory-of-knowledge/202407/unpacking-the-consciousness-suitcase">https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/theory-of-knowledge/202407/unpacking-the-consciousness-suitcase</a></span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">I have not thought
of consciousness as the result of a bilateral interaction
before, as an experience of an other responding to me.
Fascinating. I thought it was the other way round: I am
responding to an "other" and experience it as myself. You mean
if my buddy (for instance my dog) is conscious of me and I am
conscious of him we are as a pair somehow self-conscious?
Interesting.</span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">It reminds me of
Julian Jaynes who argued in "The Origin of Consciousness in
the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" that consciousness
emerged after people in ancient civilizations stopped to
believe in divine hallucinations and started to recognize the
inner voice as the own self. </span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">-J.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align:
baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br>
</span></p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"><thompnickson2@gmail.com></a> </div>
<div>Date: 7/16/24 6:59 PM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is
Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My goal, which I admit is developing on the fly, is to seek
commonalty in our thinking about consciousness by exploring
and perhaps adjusting our usage of terms with respect to
common day to day experiences with potentially conscious
others. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For instance: I think you said early on that you did not
think your "buddies" were conscious. I would be really
startled if they were not. To come to some sort of common
view, including possibly a common view of our different
views, we would explore the experiences that come to our
minds when we think about buddies and conscious things. For
instance, I think of consciousness of me as being marked by
experience of an other responding to me. I think of a buddy,
as an other who is particularly responsive to me in some
particular area. A golf buddy is somebody who is responsive
to my desire to play golf (shudder) but not so responsive,
say, to my desire to do philosophy of science. We don't
discuss politics. Since both consciousness and buddy hood
imply experiences of responsiveness, it is difficult for me to
square your use of "buddy" with your use of "non-conscious".
I am hoping that further examples will help us see where the
discordance arises.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at
12:40 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">I am not sure what your goal is here. If we
speak to our pets like chickens, cats, dogs, or horses and
expect them to understand us then we are ascribe human
attributes to them. They can feel our mood and recognize
certain words but they do not understand language. Giving
animal names is already a first step of an
anthropomorphization, isn't it?
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Would we eat a schnitzel if there is a
sign in the supermarket which says this meat is from
Paul the happy pig from Idaho with a picture next to it?
Probably not. We suppress the idea that the meat we eat
comes from a living being which is aware of its
environment and feels pleasure and pain as we do.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The meat we eat comes from unknown and
unnamed animals, whereas we know our pets well and give
them names, because they are our buddies and companions.
In principle we should all be vegetarians, but I must
admit occasionally I like to eat a schnitzel as well.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto"
align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/16/24 12:30 AM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness
Is Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Oh, so, for instance, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would you speak to your dog?</div>
<div>Would you expect your dog to under stand you when you
speak, some of the time?</div>
<div>Would you see your dog's behavior as going in a
direction?</div>
<div>Would you believe that some things give your dog
pleasure and others pain.. <br>
</div>
<div>Would you see your dog as having behaviors designed
to convey pleasure and pain. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>etc, etc. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NIck<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at
6:26 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi, Jochen, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I haven't read the paper, so grain of salt,
here. Anybody who has dealt with a bittersweet
vine knows that plants can do plenty. The question
about plants seems to me to be more one of whether
each plant is a unit. We tend not to attribute
consciousness to things we eat, so, to that extent,
I am suspicious of the assertion that all plants are
not at all conscious. (Hmmmm. I wonder if the
Chinese think that dogs are conscious.}<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I am not so much interested at the moment in
the boundaries of attrribution as I am in its
heartland. What are we getting at when we make
these attributions in ordinary day to day talk. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Imagine both you and I had dogs. I imagine
that we would behave toward our dogs in very similar
ways. Yet, on your earlier comments, you would see
them as non-conscious and I would seem them as
conscious. What difference does this attribution
make in our behavor, do you suppose. If there is no
difference, then the Pragmatist would accuse us of
arguing over metaphysics. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 14, 2024
at 5:58 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><font dir="auto">Good point. Since
plants have no brains and no neurons and no
muscles and do not move they have no "patterns
of doings" and therefore no consciousness. There
is a paper from Taiz et al. which argues plants
neither possess nor require consciousness. </font>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Plants-Neither-Possess-nor-Require-Consciousness.-Taiz-Alkon/ba409ce6518883973eb585c9cda1714b1c44707d"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Plants-Neither-Possess-nor-Require-Consciousness.-Taiz-Alkon/ba409ce6518883973eb585c9cda1714b1c44707d</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">I
found a reference to the paper in the book
"Dancing Cockatoos and the Dead Man Test: How
Behavior Evolves and Why It Matters" from
Marlene Zuk</span><br>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://wwnorton.com/books/dancing-cockatoos-and-the-dead-man-test"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wwnorton.com/books/dancing-cockatoos-and-the-dead-man-test</a></div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/13/24 3:34 AM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I have no trouble stipulating that
consciousness is a degree-thing so long as we
understand it with reference to patterns of
doings rather than in terms of the equipment
organisms carry around. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul
12, 2024 at 7:21 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">The
dictionary defines intelligence as the
ability to learn or understand or to
deal with new or trying situations. H.G.
Wells says in his book "The Time
Machine" that "There is no intelligence
where there is no change and no need of
change. Only those animals partake of
intelligence that have to meet a huge
variety of needs and dangers." LLMs are
the result of endless training cycles
and they show amazing levels of
intelligence. Apparently there is a
relation between learning and
intelligence.</span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">I
think languages and codes are more
essential to understand self-awareness
and consciousness because consciousness
and self-awareness are a side effect of
language acquisition which allows to
bypass the blind spot of the inability
to perceive the own self.</span></p>
<br dir="auto">
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Maybe
Steve and Dave are correct that there is
a spectrum of consciousness: plants have
1 bit of consciousness because they are
aware of sunshine and water levels in
the environment. Animals have 2 bits of
consciousness because they are
additionally aware of predators and food
sources in the environment. Primates
have 3 bits of consciousness because
they are aware of injustice and
inequalities (e.g. by being jealous).
Humans have the most bits of
consciousness because of language and
self-awareness. Wheeler's it from bit
comes to mind.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">-J.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
dir="auto" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Pieter Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/12/24 11:25 AM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery
of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jochen,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your thoughtful and engaging
post! It's never too late for a good
discussion, even if we sometimes get
distracted by the call of daily life (or
perhaps the allure of a particularly
captivating cat video).<br>
<br>
Your points on the necessity of language
for meta-awareness and the intriguing idea
of the "blind spot" of self-perception are
fascinating. However, I’d like to suggest
a slight pivot in our focus. Rather than
concentrating on consciousness per se, why
not delve into the realm of intelligence?<br>
<br>
Why, you might ask? Well, what we're
really curious about is what’s going on in
our heads when we're conscious. I'd rather
frame it as exploring what’s happening
when we think. This shift allows us to
focus on understanding intelligence, which
is arguably more tangible and easier to
study objectively. <br>
<br>
Imagine we endeavor to create intelligent
AI. By doing so, we can define
intelligence, observe it externally, and
measure it objectively. This aligns with
Karl Popper's idea that for something to
be considered scientific, it should be
falsifiable. Now, while I don't entirely
subscribe to the notion that everything in
research must be falsifiable (after all,
some of the best discoveries come from
uncharted territories), there's undeniable
merit in having a testable hypothesis. <br>
<br>
Studying consciousness often leads us into
murky waters where our findings might not
be easily falsifiable. On the other hand,
examining intelligence – with its overlap
with consciousness – offers us the chance
to make objective, external observations
that could ultimately shed light on the
very nature of consciousness itself.<br>
<br>
In the end, by focusing on intelligence,
we might just find ourselves uncovering
the secrets of consciousness as a
delightful side effect. It’s a bit like
trying to understand a cat's behavior by
studying its fascination with cardboard
boxes – the journey is just as
enlightening as the destination.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to your thoughts!<br>
<br>
Pieter</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
12 Jul 2024 at 00:06, Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><font dir="auto">Please
excuse the late response, I was
distracted a bit. </font>
<div dir="auto"><font dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"
dir="auto"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto"><font dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"
dir="auto">What is the reason
that one or more languages are
essential for meta awareness? I
guess we all agree that all
animals know their environment
and are aware of it. This is
necessary to move around in it,
to find food and to avoid
predators. Their biological
blueprint can be found in their
DNA.</span><br dir="auto">
<br dir="auto">
</font>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Therefore
one language is necessary for
the (DNA) code to specify an
actor which is embedded in a
world and able to move around in
it. Beings who are embedded in
an environment can perceive
everything except themselves
because the own self is the
center of all perceptions that
can not be perceived itself. As
observers we are always attached
to our own bodies. </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">The own
person is the blind spot which a
person is unable to see or hear
clearly.</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">A
second language is necessary to
get access to the world of
language and to move around in
it. It is not necessary for
salmons who come back to the
stream where they were born
(they use smell to do this) or
for ants who follow pheromones
to find the shortest path to
tasty food sources. But it is
necessary for us to become aware
of ourself because it allows us
to remove the limitations of the
blind spot. To consider ourself
as an object of reflection
requires the ability to perceive
ourself in the first place.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr">Paradoxically it is the
blind spot of the inability to
perceive the own self that makes
the "I" special. <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google
Sans"">As Gilbert Ryle
writes in his book "the concept
of mind" on page 198 </span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"></span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:"Google
Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">"‘I’,
in my use of it, always
indicates me and only indicates
me. ‘You’, ‘she’ and ‘they’
indicate different people at
different times. ‘I’ is like my
ownshadow; I can never get away
from it, as I can get away from
your shadow. There is no mystery
about this constancy, but I
mention it because it seems to
endow ‘I’ with a mystifying
uniqueness and adhesiveness."</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Is
this a baby step in the right
direction? I am not sure.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">-J.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"
dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
align="left">
<div>-------- Original message
--------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/8/24 11:20 PM
(GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the
Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper
Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>i am moved by the romance and
beauty of your account, but
ultimately left hungry for
experiences I can put my foot on.</div>
<div>You and I are clearly inclined
to disagree, and I was raised to
experience disagreement as a
discomfort.. So how then are we
to precede. I think, not
withstandijng Goethe and
Cervantes, that baby steps is the
only way. Of course, you might be
citing Goethe and Cervantes as
authorities on the matter, in
which case I can only reply,
perhaps blushing slightly at my
own callousness, that they are not
so for me. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, what facts of the matter
convince you that one or more
languages are essential for meta
awareess. Or is it elf-evident<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 4:49 PM Jochen
Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">IMHO
it is not one language which
is necessary, but more than
one. Languages can be used
to create worlds, to move
around it them, and to share
these wolds with others.
Tolkien and J.K. Rowling
have created whole
universes. The interesting
things happen if worlds
collide, if they merge and
melt, or if they drift
apart.</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Cervantes
in Spain, Goethe in Germany
and Dante in Italy helped to
create new languages -
Spanish, German and Italian,
respectively. They also
examined in their most
famous books what happens if
worlds collide. </span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Cervantes
describes in "Don Quixote" </span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">what
happens when imaginary and
real worlds collide and are
so out of sync that the
actors are getting lost.</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Goethe
decribes in his "Faust" what
happens when collective and
individual worlds collide,
i.e. when egoistic
individuals exploit the
world selfishly for their
own benefit (in his first
book "The sorrows of young
Werther" Goethe focused like
Fontane and Freud on the
opposite).</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Dante
describes in his "Divine
Comedy"</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">what
happens when worlds diverge
and people are excluded and
expelled from the world.</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Language
is necessary for self
awareness because it
provides the building blocks
for a new world which is
connected but also
independent from the old
one. This allows new
dimensions of interactions.
The connections between
worlds matter. A label is a
simple connection between a
word in one world and an
class of objects in another.
A metaphor is a more complex
connection between an
abstract idea and a
composition of objects, etc.</span></p>
<font dir="auto"><br dir="auto">
-J.</font>
<div><br dir="auto">
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
dir="auto" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message
--------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas Thompson
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/7/24 5:13 PM
(GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why
the Mystery of Consciousness
Is Deeper Than We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think of large language
models as the most embodied
things on the planet, but
let that go for a moment.
Back to baby steps. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can you lay out for me
why you believe that
language is essential to
self-awareness. Does that
believe arise from ideology,
authority, or some set of
facts I need to take account
of. To be honest here, I
should say where I am coming
from. A lot of my so-called
career was spent railing
against circular reasoning
in evolutionary theory and
psychology. So, if language
is essential to
self-awareness, and animals
do not have language, then
it indeed follows that
animals do not have
self-awareness. But what if
our method for detecting
self awareness requires
language? Now we are in a
loop. Are we in such a
loop, or are there facts of
some matter, independent of
language, convince you that
animals are not self-aware.
Is self awareness extricable
from language?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is an old old trope
that animals are automata
but that humans have soul.
Descartes swore by it. Is
"language" the new soul?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On Sun,
Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM
Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><font
dir="auto">I would say
cats, dogs and horses
don't have
meta-awareness because
they lack language. They
live in the present
moment, in the here and
now. Without language
they do not have the
capability to reflect on
their past or to think
about their future. They
can not formulate </font><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google Sans"" dir="auto">stories
of themselves which
could help to form a
sense of identity. </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google Sans"" dir="auto">Language
is the mirror in which
we perceive ourselves
during "this is me"
moments. Animals lack
this mirror completely.
One dimensional scents
trails do not count as
language.</span>
<div dir="auto"><font
face="Google Sans"
color="#000000"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto"><font
face="Google Sans"
color="#000000"><span>Large
languages models
lack consciousness
because they do not
have a body which is
embedded as a actor
in an environment.
These two things are
necessary: the
physical world of
bodies, and the
mental world of
language. When both
collide in the same
spot we can get
consciousness.<br>
</span></font>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google
Sans""><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google
Sans"">-J.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google
Sans""><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
align="left">
<div>-------- Original
message --------</div>
<div>From: Nicholas
Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/6/24 5:05
AM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday
Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee
Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] Why the
Mystery of
Consciousness Is
Deeper Than We Thought
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Well, that's
because Socrates
claimed not to know
what he thought, and
since I genuinely
don[t know what I
think until I work it
out, the conversation
has the same quality.
I apologize for that.
my students found it
truly distressing. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, if you will
indulge me, why don't
you think your cat has
meta=awareness?
Authority, ideology,
or is there some
experience you have
had that leads you to
think that. It would
be kind of odd if it
she didn't because
animals have all sorts
of ways of
distinguishing self
from other. They have
ways of knowinng that
"I did that". (e.g.,
scent marking?) <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul
5, 2024 at 3:19 PM
Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as
acting in
response to
one's own
awareness then I
would say
animals like a
cat don't have
it but humans
have. As an
example I could
say this almost
feels like I am
a participant in
a dialogue from
Plato...</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">I
would be
surprised if
it can be
described in
simple terms.
If the essence
of
consciousness
is subjective
experience
then it is
indeed hard to
describe by a
theory
although there
are many
attempts.
Persons who
perceive
things
differently
are wired
differently.
And what is
more
subjective
than the
perception of
oneself? </span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a
href="https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/</a></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Google
Sans";font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">If
we can
describe it
mathematically
then probably
as a way an
information
feels if it is
processed in
complex ways,
ad infinitum
like the
orbits of a
strange
attractor.</span></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Google
Sans";font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a
href="https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors</a></span></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">-J.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
dir="auto"
align="left">
<div>--------
Original message
--------</div>
<div>From:
Nicholas
Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 7/5/24
6:56 PM
(GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The
Friday Morning
Applied
Complexity
Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] Why the
Mystery of
Consciousness Is
Deeper Than We
Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Great! Baby
steps. "If we
aren't moving
slowly, we
aren't
moving." So,
can I define
some new terms,
tentatively, <i>per
explorandum</i>
? Let's call
acting-in-respect-to-the-world,
"awareness".
Allowing this
definition, we
certainly seem
to agree that
the cat is
aware. Lets
define
meta-awareness
as acting i
respect to one's
own awareness.
Now, am I
correct in
assuming that
you identify
meta-awareness
with
consciousness
and that you
think that the
cat is not
meta-aware and
that I probably
am? And further
that you think
that
meta-awareness
requires
consciousness?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Fri, Jul 5, 2024
at 12:17 PM
Jochen Fromm
<<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">I
would say a
cat is
conscious in
the sense that
it is aware of
its immediate
environment.
Cats are
nocturnal
animals who
hunt at night
and mostly
sleep during
the day.
Consciousness
in the sense
of being aware
of oneself as
an actor in an
environment
requires
understanding
of language
which only
humans have (
and LLMs now )
<div
dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/</a></div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto"
style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"
align="left">
<div>--------
Original
message
--------</div>
<div>From:
Nicholas
Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Date:
7/5/24 5:02 AM
(GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The
Friday Morning
Applied
Complexity
Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [FRIAM]
Why the
Mystery of
Consciousness
Is Deeper Than
We Thought </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Jochen, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>I
think the
first step in
any
conversation
is to decide
whether your
cat is
conscious. If
so, why do you
think so; if
not,
likewise. I
had a
facinnationg
conversation
with GBT
about whether
he was
conscious and
he denied it
"hotly",
which, of
course, met
one of his
criteria for
consciousness.
<br>
</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i>So.
Is your cat
connscious?<br>
</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i>Nick <br>
</i></div>
</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div
class="gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On
Thu, Jul 4,
2024 at
7:26 PM Jochen
Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div
dir="auto">
<div
dir="auto">I
don't get
Philip Goff:
first we send
our children
20 years to
school, from
Kindergarten
to college and
university, to
teach them all
kinds of
languages, and
then we wonder
how they can
be conscious.
It will be the
same for AI:
first we spend
millions and
millions to
train them all
available
knowledge, and
then we wonder
how they can
develop
understanding
of language
and
consciousness...</div>
<a
href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/</a>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
-. --- - /
...- .- .-..
.. -.. / --
--- .-. ... .
/ -.-. --- -..
.<br>
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<br>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div>
<div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div>
<div>Clark University<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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</pre>
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