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<p>As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and
depth of) authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign
my self back in to the question of what to do with my offense and
real concern for the nation (and world): I do I prepare to be a <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler">Schindler</a>
or a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer">Bonhoffer</a>?
<br>
</p>
<p>Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating
exhaustively about "leaving the country" while I am trying to
guess who more likely to suffer acutely if Project 2025 and it's
promulgators become the standard than I (elderish professional
class white male with a scruffy beard, farmer's tan and a few
callouses who is most comfortable wearing jeans and workboots, who
owns a pickup truck).<br>
</p>
<ol>
<li>We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has
significant emotional disabilities but has had her life on track
for over 10 years now, but only with significant "gub'mnt
assistance". Two of her three siblings are in even worse shape,
living much closer to the edge financially and mentally... she
moved from here to be close to them and help as she could 5 or 6
years ago. She is baldfaced scared that her siblings and likely
herself will end up on the streets (again) in a heartbeat and
possibly driven to worse things in the process. I think *we*
could help her enough that she could keep helping her siblings
avoid a complete failure to thrive... so that is one thing.</li>
<li>Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent
resident status after decades of bouncing between temporary work
visas and returning to the highlands of MX, all the time working
as hard as he could, birthing and raising two children (who are
American Citizens by birth, aka "anchor babies") and now some
grandchildren. He doesn't openly worry or grouse, but I could
feel the relief when his permanent residence status (and that of
his wife in a similar time frame) came through. While I think
he is on the "safe" side of immigration rules being turned
inside out, I'm sure he is worried about it as well as whether
the intolerant elements of our community might feel (more)
liberated in directing their "performative cruelty" in his
family's direction. Helping him could come in many forms, not
sure what they are quite yet.</li>
<li>I'm sure there are others... others I won't think of until I
sit with it for a while?</li>
</ol>
<p>Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in
Ecuador? I doubt my canoe can traverse the coast around the
Darien Gap, but it might be worth a try... (probably trade it on
the south-end for something of value or at least some good intel
on how to get to your place?) or just stay here and channel
Schindler and Bonhoffer?</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CANr4ZePrPeZ_2Y7T2AhfuCdJmzAA1bA9pfui8ToKM-KTJ2oFkw@mail.gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if
Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams
imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an
official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he
would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an
honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a
legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just
remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do
they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent
insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or
the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be
treasonous.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"><russ.abbott@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Don't want to drag this out forever, but ... The immunity decision is extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if charges are brought against him.
-- Russ Abbott
Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"><gepropella@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and holding them for a very long time before charging them are the in-between wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into them, etc. And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty hard constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way the President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE, or something, not the Navy or CIA.
IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.)
I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of this, though.
On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all that.
-- Russ
On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"><mailto:gepropella@gmail.com></a>> wrote:
It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court. If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action, we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is already lost.
On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?
>
> -- Russ
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"><mailto:gepropella@gmail.com></a> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">mailto:gepropella@gmail.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"><mailto:gepropella@gmail.com></a>>> wrote:
>
> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.
>
> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
>
> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.
> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.
> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
> >>> [Scott's] Prayer
> >>> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117">https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117"><https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117></a> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117">https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117"><https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117></a>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/">https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/"><https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/></a> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/">https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/"><https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/></a>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?
> >>>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
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