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<p>Nick, et alii behavioristae -</p>
<p>We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I
understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to
be self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and
other vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates*
to demonstrate self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like
someone is watching"... showing off, being shy, etc.<br>
</p>
<p>I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here.
Yesterday I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo)
and purchased for about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was
intended for the "feed other pets" market. Snakes and ??? not
sure what these little guys are normally fed to. So now I have a
whole cohort of characters called "little fishies"... one died
in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30 mins, but
apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and released
into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish
live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone
swimming "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the
pump/recirculation feeding from the main pond). One got caught
near the spillway swimming upstream continuously to avoid going
over in the spirit of "swam and swam all over the dam, oh damn!"
. <br>
</p>
<p>A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter
the Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much
thicker than a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he
saw Hank and I approach... the thrashed around and around the top
pond (2' diameter, surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out"
that didn't include exposing himself yet-more to me (and Hank).
After he finally raised his need to flee over his fear of direct
encounter, I tried counting little fishies, but they were too
elusive and too busy to really count... but there were still
"plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp
things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The
range of size of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big"
and "way too big" for Garter... but probably not. This morning
Hank and I went to count again and the small pond had no evident
fish in it. Fortunately the big pond showed a good number of the
little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing they all gave up
one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or maybe
Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen
both Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in
the ponds before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons"
for why the numbers of live fish always dwindle over time without
any evident floaters (or frozen fish-sticks which do happen in
winter if I fail to keep the circulation going in the coldest
periods).</p>
<p>From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys
(or the 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I
will likely name them individually and begin to project onto them
all kinds of sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy
to not-do when they are still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because
they are young and still ignorant of everything but their
immediate here/now with little experience to expand that. On
the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a big
flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught
in the drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as
self-aware (maybe I'd have felt different if I'd met them while
they were still alive?).<br>
</p>
<p>As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the
world and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and
elaborated in Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston">Free Energy
Principle, Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference</a>).</p>
<p>I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a
leaf-lettuce rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl
on my windowsill. Just to see if they can continue to grow
aquaponically if I find a way to help them float with their roots
underwater and their growing leaf-cores to reach for the sun.
They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than mine or the
fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into
the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit
slower? Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or
perhaps just "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are
much if at all aware of me, much less my intentions of pulling
them apart limb from limb to eat them (like I did their
clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to her houseplants,
and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge of
their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling
on their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the
way all animals do.</p>
<p>The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?)
are watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW,
for all the birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey
on fish... though some are big on insects... <br>
</p>
<p>(typing like nobody is reading)....</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAXA=WmiQ9zCrjYZsS-=fcOSUXNj4dF-Ex4ifoLt2=_LBakf3g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am
falling behind in everything except my capacity to be stirred
up by ideas. Bad combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to
come and take away my keyboard. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here:
How to continue without spinning off into vague agreement.
Along with a desire to achieve agreement comes a desire to
delimit it. We agree that all the characters in the story are
conscious; I am trying to see how we could explore the degree
of our agreement on the proposition that we are all
self-conscious. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM
so I am going there now. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>N<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at
4:41 PM Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="msg7303347245920911201">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div style="height:146px">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Dusty is
conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give
Jackson (my other dog) a treat and observe
body language and facial expressions
exhibited by Dusty that I interpret as,
"where's mine?" This indicates to me some
kind of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness
of self.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="clear:both"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><i><b>Could you say
more about the body language and facial
expressions. Imagine that I am going to take
care of your two dogs for a weekend; what
would you tell me to look for?</b></i><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">the above is the
quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is
your request. around the 15th of July.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Dusty and Jackson have
their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution of a
self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for
/ obtaining what they want.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Dusty's way is silent,
Jackson's almost always involves a gentle-bark/yip.
E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and
places her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson
sits close to my knee, establishes eye contact and
vocalizes his request.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">Both come to my bed at the
earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these days) and
stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get
up. Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past
N-months but has never been tempted to vocalize herself.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">if she ever does vocalize,
even by accident, I will immediately rise and see if she
learns the stimulus-response pattern.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">I may be seeing nothing
more than early training. Dusty's previous owners
demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait,
indefinitely, for explicit invitations. I have no idea
about Jackson's early training.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div>On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="m_7303347245920911201qt">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>David, and all.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the
meta as I can. So I will answer your general
critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say
here that behaviorism is way in the rear view
mirror at this point and I certainly am not trying
to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I
have done all the bad things you point to; I am
blundering about here trying to find a way toward
shared understandings of experiences. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-left:40px"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10px">Dusty will look up,
at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then
stand, in a position I interpret as 'being
on alert' and look at Jackson, then at me,
then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as
4-5 times), then 'staring' at me. Jackson
does something similar, but he will also
utter a small bark/yip while staring.</span></i></b><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px">My command of gmail
bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I
prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure
there is one. i just cant find it. Ok, so lets
say we are groping toward a method here, call it
critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story
which, intuitively he feels is an example of some
experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with
that attribution. Together we work out what other
experiences would follow if this attribution was
correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree
about the boundaries of the experience-type. But
it if we find that we agree on those boundaries,
then we search through our experiences for other
anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the
type. So, as I read your description, I think,
this is an example of "trying to figure out what
the heck I have to do to get a treat, around
here?" You might then do an experiment, which I
understand in this context to be a procedure that
provokes an experience that we both would take as
decisive. Let's say you start to feed Jackson
ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that,
Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less
inclined to my original attribution. </span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px">It's kind of you to
help me with this, Dave.</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px">It's quite possible
I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk.</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px">Nick</span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>davew<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof
David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>From the beginning, I believed this thread was,
in substantial part, Nick's attempt to 'teach' us
to think as behavioralists and see how far we
could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I
tried very hard to couch all of my responses in
such terms. I did express, early on, that I had
serious doubts about how far we could go without
deviating into other questions—and the answer
appears to be not far.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with
seem to be accepted with no concern.<br>
</div>
<div>Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a
quick mea culpa.<br>
</div>
<div>Then a flood of additional metaphsysics
(inside/outside), inter-species (human-whale,
human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances
(consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my
challenge to the 'approach' because it excluded
'evidence' from meditation or drugs.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with
responses, I am curious as to whether or not we
are really making progress towards consensus of
any kind.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But, just in case, responding to Nick's last
question to me:<br>
</div>
<div>Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is
receiving a treat, then stand, in a position I
interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson,
then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as
many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' at me. Jackson
does something similar, but he will also utter a
small bark/yip while staring.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>davew<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div>> Nick -<br>
</div>
<div>>> I must say, I am grateful and pleased
by all these testimonials and I<br>
</div>
<div>>> am beginning to sense method in my
madness.<br>
</div>
<div>> I'm glad you were willing able to wade
through my gallop of<br>
</div>
<div>> observations/reflections/experiences with
these two highly central<br>
</div>
<div>> creatures in my household.<br>
</div>
<div>>> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd
than you are about Hank.<br>
</div>
<div>> Very much so, as I experience with many
cats, she does not reach as far<br>
</div>
<div>> into human psyche/nature to meet me as
most dogs (Hank in particular) does.<br>
</div>
<div>>> So, in your assertion that Cyd is
both conscious and self<br>
</div>
<div>>> conscious, I am inclined to ask for
more details. So the method goes<br>
</div>
<div>>> something like this<br>
</div>
<div>>><br>
</div>
<div>>> We statt with the intouition that
because Cyd does X, Cyd is conscious.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> I think you know from my pan-consciousness
self-diagnosis that all of<br>
</div>
<div>> the things I am inclined to report about
Cyd also applies to the<br>
</div>
<div>> hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and
the fish Hank barks at.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> Cyd has a very highly adaptive
sensorimotor system which not only allows<br>
</div>
<div>> her to be good at stalking and catching
lizards but also at begging her<br>
</div>
<div>> people to let her out to do so, or to give
her a helping of "second<br>
</div>
<div>> dinners" like the hobbit she channels.
She observes, considers, acts,<br>
</div>
<div>> observes the consequences of her acts (the
book falling from the top of<br>
</div>
<div>> the bookcase when she traverses it too
rambunctioiusly, the way Mary<br>
</div>
<div>> jumps up and lets her out when she hits
the right note of plaintive<br>
</div>
<div>> meow, the way the lizard freezes when it
senses her). This is an<br>
</div>
<div>> overwhelming indication of consciousness
in my apprehension of the world.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> We were implying that an animal's "Love"
or "loving relationship with" a<br>
</div>
<div>> human familiar had something to do with
consciousness. I think that is<br>
</div>
<div>> a red-herring, I don't think the lizards
love Mary when she frees them<br>
</div>
<div>> from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are
acutely conscious.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>>> From our prior usage of the term,
we know that if Cyd is conscious,<br>
</div>
<div>>> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N
with greater frequency than<br>
</div>
<div>>> otherwise. We check t o see if this
is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now<br>
</div>
<div>>> add Cyd to the list of conscious
beings. Now we check to see if<br>
</div>
<div>>> other conscious beings do X with
greater frequency than non conscious<br>
</div>
<div>>> ones. If so, we have added to the
list of things that conscious<br>
</div>
<div>>> beings do.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> See above... A==sense, B==process,
C==respond. I don't know that A,<br>
</div>
<div>> B, C singularly without both of the others
even makes sense.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> The fish in the pond are almost
continuously in some level of motion,<br>
</div>
<div>> they appear to be sensing with their
photon and olfactory and<br>
</div>
<div>> vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They
respond to signals (shadow of<br>
</div>
<div>> human or dog looming over pond, insect
landing on the surface of the<br>
</div>
<div>> pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in
the pond) by bolting or<br>
</div>
<div>> gulping or seeking more input (curiosity).
While a lot of their<br>
</div>
<div>> processing may be prewired/instinctive, I
do believe that part of their<br>
</div>
<div>> processing is in support of "learning".
The dragonflies who like the<br>
</div>
<div>> high-ground of the tips of everything they
can alight on seem yet more<br>
</div>
<div>> automatic/instinctual yet they appear
(because I project?) to learn...<br>
</div>
<div>> they appear to become more and more
tolerant of my approaching them the<br>
</div>
<div>> more I do it? They likely recognize that
despite the appeal of the tip<br>
</div>
<div>> of my car antennae, the tips of the
cat-tails in the pond seem to be<br>
</div>
<div>> more appealing given the likely food-flux
they can spy and grab from<br>
</div>
<div>> that vantage (but this is a just-so
projection since I'm not a very<br>
</div>
<div>> disciplined naturalist, I really have
nothing but anecdotal observations).<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> So perhaps D might be "learn"...<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> Which takes me to the trees and bushes I
feel a strong<br>
</div>
<div>> affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B,
C (and even D?). I say yes. <br>
</div>
<div>> They don't have lenses over their
photo-receptors, but since their<br>
</div>
<div>> primary/singular energy gathering activity
is photonic/light, they<br>
</div>
<div>> clearly sense light. They also seem to
be able to extend root growth<br>
</div>
<div>> toward water and nutrients, or along same
said nutrients... this<br>
</div>
<div>> represents A and C as does growth
"reaching" growth out from under the<br>
</div>
<div>> shade to gather more light? What about
B? B would seem to be entirely<br>
</div>
<div>> pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the
scale of the individual<br>
</div>
<div>> single-lifetime organism? Which spills
over to "learning" (D) which<br>
</div>
<div>> maybe isn't happening at the scale of the
individual... does a branch or<br>
</div>
<div>> root keep "reaching" even if it gets
stymied over and over? I'm not<br>
</div>
<div>> sure. So if B and even D are required for
"consciousness" then perhaps<br>
</div>
<div>> it is only a population of such organisms
and the germline phenotypic<br>
</div>
<div>> expression which we must acknowledge some
level of "proto-consciousness"<br>
</div>
<div>> to?<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> To go on down the line of lower-and lower
complexity entities or systems<br>
</div>
<div>> i'd have to grasp further and seek the
existing guidance of others in<br>
</div>
<div>> the pan-consciousness world who have
worked through this in their own ways.<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of
consciousness feels very hard<br>
</div>
<div>> for me to even begin to want to draw
between Hank and Cyd or where it<br>
</div>
<div>> excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or
any and all of the<br>
</div>
<div>> yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and
eat. Interesting that all of<br>
</div>
<div>> these are predators, no?<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>> Yet another free-associateve gallop?<br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
<div>><br>
</div>
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href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
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<div><br>
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<div><span>--</span><br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br>
</div>
<div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br>
</div>
<div>Clark University<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
-.-. --- -.. .<br>
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<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
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<br clear="all">
<br>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div>
<div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div>
<div>Clark University<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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