<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick: <i>"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience."</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion that, "I" am NOT <i>"one of those that others are." (obviously there is some marginal overlap)</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to publicly reveal about them<b>S</b>elves.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interoception.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> those outside the house.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> All,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we are in interaction with are conscious.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. 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