<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">dragon stories:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>my very first experience with peyote, I was 12-13 and living on the Hopi reservation with my aunt and uncle. A group of boys were given the peyote as a reward for gathering cottonwood buds for use in a Hopi ceremonial dance. Of the five of us only one other wanted to try the drug, so I consumed roughly for doses. A massive thunderstorm was in progress. At some point, a dragon coalesced from the lightning, thunder, filtered sunlight and began speaki</b><b>ng to me</b>.</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">[important interjection: my brain was "making sense' of an overwhelming number of sensations, some detected by nerve endings, others generated by frantic neuron firings. Assumed/assuming this is the same kind of thing that happens when the brain 'makes sense' of the bombardment of sensations/neural firings that create the "illusion" of an external world.]<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>we engaged in an apparently long lasting conversation about my recent experiences in Hopi-land, the various Hopi stories I had been told that summer and how to interpret them. At some point the dragon used the phrase, "alarums and excursions;" an idiom I had first encountered some 8 years prior (pre-grade school) in a book called </b></i><u><i><b>David and the Phoenix</b></i></u><b><i>.</i></b><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">[interjection: till this point my interactions with the dragon were, as far as I could tell, pretty much identical to the interactions I might have had with another human being in the 'waking world'. This includes the implicit assumption that I was interacting with a sentient, conscious, and self-conscious being.]<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Second story:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>I was exploring the use of pain as a means of inducing an altered state of consciousness. Four hours of enduring intense and varied pain administered by a sadistic dominatrix in Salt Lake City, made me very self-aware with a raspy voice. I began the 9 hour drive to Santa Fe to attend FRIAM. Along the way my body went into shock and I dealt with that using meditative techniques. I also was playing a CD of meditative Buddhist chants that I began to hum out loud with my raspy voice. The result was the altered state I had been seeking.</b></i><i><b><br></b></i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b><br></b></i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>Somewhere in Arches National Park, I stopped, stripped naked and walked down a dry wash where I 'encountered' a campfire and sat down. Brigham Young was sitting at the periphery of the campfire and we began a long conversation about Mormon theology and metaphysics, why blacks lost the right to the priesthood (there were blacks in the priesthood in Nauvoo while Joseph Smith was alive and that is one of the reasons the Mormons were persecuted by Missourians), why religions like Christianity, Islam and Mormonism changed from Feminism to misogyny, education, eternal progression, and a host of other topics. The conversation ended when I realized I would be late for FRIAM unless I stopped and resumed my journey.</b></i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">[interjection: both the dragon and Brigham Young were 'illusions' constructed "by the brain" just as the 'illusion' of ordinary reality. While interacting with them, they were, to me, sentient, aware, and conscious entities. I attributed sentience, intelligence, consciousness to them precisely because of the perceived interactions- the verbal (in my case) and the 'auditorialized' (neuron firings interpreted as sound) voices (of dragon and Brigham).]<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">After the fact self analysis of the incidents conclude that in both cases, the "conversation" was between 'my self' and 'my memories': of the David in the book and his conversations with the Phoenix in the book; all of the writings of Brigham Young I had read years before.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">These stories do not, technically bear on where or not dragons are conscious, but they most definitely bear on whether or not domestic animals and Nick are conscious—by virtue of the fact that the 'data' and the 'interpretation of the data' are, evidently, the same.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">You might make an argument for 'faulty machinery' in my two stories, but what is gained vis-a-vis our common understanding.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 8:27 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi David,<br></div><div><br></div><div>My ears are still ringing with this:<br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b><i>When
we do eventually turn to "self- " I have many anecdotes,
but fear they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or
idiosyncratic (Holy Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind
impossible.</i></b></span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10px;"><b><i></i></b></span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Every experience references a place-from-which. To that extent, an experience is necessarily idiosyncratic. If you have had an experience with a dragon that you think bears on whether dragons are conscious or not, I want to hear it. </span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;"></span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="font" style="font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13px;">Nick</span></span><br></div></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 5:35 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks, Dave,<br></div><div>I tried to set two ground rules, here: One is simply that we try to find ways to a common understanding. I recognize that the best way to get there might be to go into battle together, or drink a lot whiskey together, or drop acid together, but my puritan upbringing forbids those methods. So, the second is that we do it by sharing concrete experiences, rather than airy references to philosophers or links to voluminous publications, or, in my case, vast insertions of my published works. .<br></div><div><br></div><div>So, if you have a better procedure for meeting those rules lets try them.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 1:15 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><u></u><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">apologize for immediate last post being on this thread - it is indeed veering into metaphysics (oh boy fun).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">However, what was said, was indeed anecdotes about my 'experiences' vis-a-vis consciousness. Are such impermissible in this conversation? If Dr. Lilly were to join us share anecdotes about dolphin consciousness or, heaven forbid, about dropping acid with the dolphins, would they be useful for our conversation?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I am totally sympathetic with the program here, (and do not see it as a game, zero-sum or otherwise) but often feel as if I am constrained by invisible rules. May I share stories only about cats, Dusty, and Jackson? Perhaps the answer is implicit in your baby-steps dictum: yes, for now, with anecdotes about dragons and unicorns deferred until we have obtained some degree of consensus as to domestic mammals?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">When we do eventually turn to "self-consciousness" I have many anecdotes, but fear they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or idiosyncratic (Holy Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind impossible.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt-m_3282939523469483903m_-7850133004113426758qt"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, everybody. We are veering into meta again. Ugh. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to converse productively about consciousness. A productive conversation, for Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of disagreement. Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds. Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit. I tell an anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious, than other anecdotes must be relevant. You chime in with your anecdotes. We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious. With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious". <br></div><div><br></div><div>Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether agreement is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality. I hear Dave saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I prefer my Holy Individuality." But in the end, I don't think there is anyway to play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a common outcome.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><u></u><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick: <i>"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience."</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion that, "I" am NOT <i>"one of those that others are." (obviously there is some marginal overlap)</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to publicly reveal about them<b>S</b>elves.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interoception.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> those outside the house.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> All,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we are in interaction with are conscious.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span>--</span><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br></div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br></div><div>Clark University<br></div></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br></div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br></div><div>Clark University<br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br></div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br></div><div>Clark University<br></div></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>