<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Nice link. IMHO t</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); white-space-collapse: preserve;">he most interesting things in culture happen at the transition between the primitive cultures studied in anthropology and the modern societies studied in sociology. </span></p><br dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">One could argue that self-awareness also happens at such a point: it is the transition moment between the "here-and-now" world of the child and the detached "non-obvious" reality of grown-ups.</span></p><p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br></span></p><p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space-collapse: preserve;">-J.</span></p><p style="margin-top:0.0pt;margin-bottom:0.0pt;" dir="ltr"><br></p><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Roger Critchlow <rec@elf.org> </div><div>Date: 7/24/24 7:58 PM (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> </div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics </div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr">Andrew Gelman's blog had a post this morning about his sister's research into the acquisition of reasoning.<div><br></div><div> <a href="https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2024/07/24/this-ones-important-looking-beyond-the-obvious-essentialism-and-abstraction-as-central-to-our-reasoning-and-beliefs/">https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2024/07/24/this-ones-important-looking-beyond-the-obvious-essentialism-and-abstraction-as-central-to-our-reasoning-and-beliefs/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Children begin organizing their experience with concepts that have no material existence very early in life. Perhaps as soon as they start talking to each other about WTF is going on. Not in the research, but I expect they talk to their pets about this, too.</div><div><br></div><div>-- rec --</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:31 AM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"><font dir="auto">Nick, </font><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. </span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a place before it gets interesting.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">J.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto" align="left"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> </div><div>Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> </div><div>Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics </div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div>David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.</div><div><br></div><div>Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world around them. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Back to this later when stocked up<br></div><div><br></div><div>In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.</div><div><br></div><div>I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div></div>
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