<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Jochem,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">As gently and respectfully as possible, I must correct your view of anthropology. First, there are three primary branches, archeology: the study of cultures before any historic record, cultural: the study of any and every peoples from ancient to contemporary, and physical, the study of evolution of human species. Some also include linguistic, the study of the evolution of language.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Very little of cultural anthropology is focused on "primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region." My own Ph.D. in Anthro focused on criticism of the prevailing computer metaphor for human cognition and the role of culture in shaping how people think. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The study of pre-literate societies, including the few that can still be found in remote areas, are premised on using such study to illuminate contemporary and historical societies; e.g., the Yanomami and their bent for violence, to modern gangs. The goal is always to seek insights based on "making the strange familiar and the familiar strange."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Culture existed and was essential for human organization and society, tens of thousands of years before the agricultural revolution and the emergence of urbanization. And it was rich and complex and fascinating and quite informative of why people are what they are today.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div><span>Nick, </span><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.</span><br></p><div><br></div><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.</span><br></p><div><br></div><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a place before it gets interesting.</span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)</span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;">J.</span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-position:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"></span><br></p></div><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div>-------- Original message --------<br></div><div>From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2@gmail.com><br></div><div>Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>, Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm><br></div><div>Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics<br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div>David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world around them.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Back to this later when stocked up<br></div><div><br></div><div>In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>