<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">None of <b><i>IT</i></b>.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The problem is 'extracting' and formalizing <b><i>IT</i></b> with sufficient rigor to be encodable.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Fri, Jul 26, 2024, at 2:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Which of this cannot be encoded digitally by a robot?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Prof David West<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2024 12:12 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Writing and Civilization and AI, oh my!<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I agree with one small caveat. Artifacts; tangible, written, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> stigmergic, ... are but a small part of what is "cooperatively <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> constructed and kneaded." The vast majority of what an individual <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "knows" and the vast majority of what the 'collective' "knows" is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> tacit, 'in-the-mind' and transmitted orally and/or by non-formal means.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On Fri, Jul 26, 2024, at 12:18 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Similarly, but a bit larger in scope, humans (and other animals) are <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> merely small parts of a larger system. The extent to which any one <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> person actually knows anything (much less is wise about anything) is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> negligible, on the same order as that which a chimpanzee knows or is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> wise about something. What's *valuable*, worth preserving, are the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> cooperatively constructed and kneaded stigmergic cultural artifacts.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> But unlike Plato's straw man, suggesting the artifacts are somehow <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> fixed and repetitive, what's interesting about them is a) their <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> re-interpretation through successive generations and b) the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> derivations spawned from them. Decay and derivation are more <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> informative than preservation. No single artifact (including flora and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> fauna, knowledge or wisdom) matters. What matters is the milieu, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> co-mediated by artifacts like math and painting.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On 7/26/24 09:14, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> *< *Particularly galling to me is the deprecation and dismissal of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> any human knowledge, wisdom, experience ... that cannot be reduced to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> mere words and abstract symbols. The epitome of this is the conceit <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> that AI—which is nothing more than the algorithmic manipulation of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> abstract meaningless tokens is somehow "equivalent" to human <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> intelligence.><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> The conceit of humans, thinking their low energy, low frequency, lossy biochemical system can compete with tens of thousands of 80 billion-transistor GPUs each running a billion operations a second.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> --<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> archives: 5/2017 thru present<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Attachments:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> * smime.p7s<br></div></body></html>