<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI";
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:11.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>It is not necessary to put it into words. A robot built on a deep neural net or a reinforcement learning system could have sensors across the electromagnetic spectrum of whatever resolution, and as it accumulated experiences it would learn to associate red with flowers, heating elements, blood of animals, decorative clothing, stop signs, etc. Whatever latent representation it used to connect those experiences is not important, and different robots could have different latent representations. However, each could learn bounds on the frequency range to classify what other agents called red. If one saved the weights and biases of the neural nets to files and compared the two networks, one might find a topologically similar pattern that arose from the frequency range. That shared topology, if any, could be called the qualia of red.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Russ Abbott<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 26, 2024 3:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Writing and Civilization and AI, oh my!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From a consciousness perspective, what (so-far) cannot be encoded digitally by a robot are qualia. A robot can encode light frequencies, but not, for example, what red looks like. I can't think of a way to put what-red-looks-like into words. From a subjective experience perspective, it seems like a sort of primitive. How would you do it? What words would you use to express what red looks like?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor Emeritus, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 12:13<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal>Which of this cannot be encoded digitally by a robot?<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Prof David West<br>Sent: Friday, July 26, 2024 12:12 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Writing and Civilization and AI, oh my!<br><br>I agree with one small caveat. Artifacts; tangible, written, stigmergic, ... are but a small part of what is "cooperatively constructed and kneaded." The vast majority of what an individual "knows" and the vast majority of what the 'collective' "knows" is tacit, 'in-the-mind' and transmitted orally and/or by non-formal means.<br><br>davew<br><br><br>On Fri, Jul 26, 2024, at 12:18 PM, glen wrote:<br>> Similarly, but a bit larger in scope, humans (and other animals) are <br>> merely small parts of a larger system. The extent to which any one <br>> person actually knows anything (much less is wise about anything) is <br>> negligible, on the same order as that which a chimpanzee knows or is <br>> wise about something. What's *valuable*, worth preserving, are the <br>> cooperatively constructed and kneaded stigmergic cultural artifacts.<br>><br>> But unlike Plato's straw man, suggesting the artifacts are somehow <br>> fixed and repetitive, what's interesting about them is a) their <br>> re-interpretation through successive generations and b) the <br>> derivations spawned from them. Decay and derivation are more <br>> informative than preservation. No single artifact (including flora and <br>> fauna, knowledge or wisdom) matters. What matters is the milieu, <br>> co-mediated by artifacts like math and painting.<br>><br>> On 7/26/24 09:14, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>>> *< *Particularly galling to me is the deprecation and dismissal of <br>>> any human knowledge, wisdom, experience ... that cannot be reduced to <br>>> mere words and abstract symbols. The epitome of this is the conceit <br>>> that AI—which is nothing more than the algorithmic manipulation of <br>>> abstract meaningless tokens is somehow "equivalent" to human <br>>> intelligence.><br>>> <br>>> The conceit of humans, thinking their low energy, low frequency, lossy biochemical system can compete with tens of thousands of 80 billion-transistor GPUs each running a billion operations a second.<br>><br>><br>> --<br>> <span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>ꙮ</span> M<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɥ</span>ǝu ǝlǝd<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɥɐ</span>u<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ʇ</span>s <span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɟᴉ</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ƃ</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɥʇ</span>' <span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ʇɥ</span>ǝ <span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ƃ</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɹɐ</span>ss sn<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɟɟ</span>ǝ<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>ɹ</span>s˙ <span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>ꙮ</span><br>><br>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br>> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>> archives: 5/2017 thru present<br>> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br><br>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>