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<p>Elon/Musk/elno is such a bastard, I so love to hate him and I so
hate to love him. <br>
</p>
<p>I can't say I love the bastard hisself, but my early
indoctrination in to all things libertarian (hyper-individualistic
with a strong technophilic overlay?) and age-of-WTF tech (starting
with age-of-transport/comms Tom Swift series of juvenile novels to
limited DC comics to Scientific Romances (Verne, Burroughs, et.
al.) and then Hard Sci Fi (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein) and a taste
of Golden Age (Van Vogt, Williamson, et al) and then the CyberPunk
(Gibson, Sterling, Stephenson, Cadigan, ...) and proto cyberpunk
(Brunner, ???) all made me subject to a latent and lingering
affection for the "Good Old Fashioned Future" which I often
chastise here in my neo-retro-Luddism... <br>
</p>
<p>Lex's interviews as well as Isaacson's biography have really
personalized Musk for me in a way that I feel allows me to
properly empathise and even sympathise with his nature while also
feeling acutely cautioned by the danger such a formidably,
potentially psycho-socially-pathological creature he might be...
or at least in the spirit of "power is corruption", the outsize
amount of power he carries by his (self made by some measure)
circumstance almost by definition condemns his to a similar scale
of corruption?</p>
<p>As for him leaving on a rocket to Mars, this reminds me of the
work contexts where I have watched underlings actively seek a
promotion for their boss, just to get them out of their hair. I
do think he would cause less problems as Emperor of Barsoom,
however, than if he injected himself (inside a distributed Grok
Cluster?) into the Asteroid belt as a Borg-like or Lawnmower Man
effigy. His persona, as reflected by many of his
critics/detractors reminds me acutely of SID 6.7 (Virtuosity
1995?) and Ah-nolds depiction of the Terminator, even thought I
think that is a bit of a caricature.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/7/24 8:07 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:53BB5EB9-CC58-4DC1-A4CD-29F479D99FF5@snoutfarm.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
He better get on a rocket to Mars, because Tesla shareholders are
going to crucify him.
<div><br>
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<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Aug 6, 2024, at 6:18 AM, Sarbajit
Roy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sroy.mb@gmail.com"><sroy.mb@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If you are
including "divine experiences" from
other world religions, I can suggest 2 candidates from
Hinduism. It would be very interesting to see how these
became so well known in this part of the woods.<br>
<br>
a) Mahasaya Lahiri and his encounter with Mahaavatra
Babaji<br>
<a
href="https://www.dunagiri.com/post/autobiography-of-a-yogi-34-babajis-cave"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.dunagiri.com/post/autobiography-of-a-yogi-34-babajis-cave</a><br>
<br>
b) The Katha Upanishad : A very young boy Nachiketa (son
of a respected sage) and his dialogues with Yama
(YamRaj) the God of Death.<br>
<br>
Sarbajit Roy</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at
8:43 PM Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Minor comment from a :metaphor obsessed colleague." I am
teaching an honors course at the University of St.
Thomas in the spring: Effing the Ineffable, with a
colleague who teaches Theology. The basic premise: you
just had this extraordinary experience and you want to
communicate/share it with others. How do you do so?"
Metaphor, obviously.<br>
<br>
Case studies will cover a spectrum from Michael
Jordan-like "in the zone" experiences to acid trips to
Moses and the burning bush to J. Smith and the golden
plates. We are undecided if we dare include Mohamed as a
case study even though all other religions and mystical
traditions are fair game. One thread in the acid-trip
area is how contemporary science has provide a host of
new metaphors from the realm of physics, etc. that can
be utilized to provide a more "accurate" or "satisfying"
Effing.
<br>
<br>
davew<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, at 9:07 AM, glen wrote:<br>
> These are all fine propositions. But, as you point
out, sacrificing his <br>
> status doesn't rationally add up. Snyder's
proposing a solution to <br>
> that. To boot, Snyder's proposition attempts to
explain a bunch of <br>
> other "data" (like the way we use our smartphones
and exhibit a <br>
> tendency toward conspiracy theories, gurus, and
alternate facts - <br>
> oracular truth).<br>
><br>
> One thing not quite addressed by Snyder is the
apparent rationalism in <br>
> things like longtermism, effective altruism, etc.
For that, I think <br>
> he'd have to flesh out how actual/useful/realist
truth dovetails with <br>
> oracular/mystical truth. He mentions during his
talk that, of course <br>
> actual tech (like starting a fire) is involved in
oracular truth. You <br>
> have to start the fire and burn some incense to
enthrall your victims. <br>
> I think, here is where our metaphor-obsessed
colleagues could apply <br>
> their skills. Where is, eg, "fire" an actual thing
and where is it a <br>
> metaphor (eg Prometheus). When should the guru
discourage metaphor (the <br>
> fire doesn't matter!, pay attention to my hand
movements) and when <br>
> should they encourage it?<br>
><br>
> The New Rationalists (including Singerian EA) are
masters of metaphor, <br>
> either being guided to focus on a small slice of
reality or guiding <br>
> others to do so, abstracting out some stupid
thought experiment like <br>
> kids falling into ponds or Trolleys headed toward
clueless weirdos <br>
> standing on train tracks. Such metaphor is a proven
manipulation tactic <br>
> used by gurus like Rasputin or Plato the world
over.<br>
><br>
> Which of the witches are actually also enthralled
and which are <br>
> Barnum-style manipulators? To me, Thiel seems like
the latter and Musk <br>
> seems like the former.<br>
><br>
> On 8/2/24 13:52, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
>> Perhaps realizing his interests require tapping
government resources and many trillions of dollars. I
could see that for that it might make sense to use
Twitter to manipulate the media and create the political
support for his agenda(s). Maybe it even makes sense to
want Trump elected so that social service spending will
be stopped, and more money can be redirected to his
Mechzilla projects. Perhaps he finds an open society
creates too many competing goals, and, by supporting
authoritarian thinking and Trump in particular, he
anticipates a government that is easier to focus the way
he likes. What doesn't add up is that it was already
going well for him with relatively wealthy Americans,
and then he trashed his reputation and the profitability
of Tesla for no apparent good reason. The kind of
people that will now by an Audi E-Tron instead of a
Model S, or an Ionic 5 instead of a Model 3. He also
seems way too engaged in topics like transgender rights
and immigration. None of these issues need influence
his life at all. It is as if he really believes some
of the peculiar things he says.<br>
>> <br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of glen<br>
>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:45 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter<br>
>> <br>
>> I clearly don't understand. Snyder's
explanation is that Elno is a god, and views himself as
a god (or the weaker concept of a hero). So Elno is both
building/burying his hoard so that it'll be available
across the transition *and* Lying to his flock such that
they sacrifice to him in order to engage in projects
that will ensure the transition happens and that he and
his flock will exist on the other side.<br>
>> <br>
>> None of that is nihilist. What am I missing?<br>
>> <br>
>> On 8/2/24 11:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
>>> I was addressing Snyder's recommendation
rather than the development of Elon's personality.
Assuming the personality Elon presents is really his. I
suspect it is, which would be kind of a disappointment.<br>
>>><br>
>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of glen<br>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:25 AM<br>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought
twitter<br>
>>><br>
>>> IDK. That sounds like you projecting onto
Elno, rather than an explanation that relies on Elno's
[hi]story. His narrative arc is (as Harris laid out in
his video) is "the potential of humankind". And that
doesn't seem nihilist to me. Maybe he's become one, of
course. As Harris states in the video, when he became
the richest man, a qualitative shift may have taken
place. Harris argues the shift was he bought Twitter
because he *need* conflict and obstacles to overcome.
Maybe you could argue the qualitative change was that he
became a nihilist when his hoard met that criterion. But
because he continues to be an "AI Doomer" (at least in
rhetoric and an accelerationist in action), there's some
sort of Rawlsian curtain, like the singularity ...
something on the other side of the transition - and an
attempt to bury one's hoard so that it's available on
the other side. And I think that eschatological
conception fits better with his narrative arc than a
nihilistic one.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On 8/2/24 11:11, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
>>>> My standard answer to this is -- given
the neural reference frame of nihilism -- is why not try
some grand social experiments. There is no Purpose, so
causing harm in the short term, or for that matter long
term, ultimately doesn't matter.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of glen<br>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:12 AM<br>
>>>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] why musk bought
twitter<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> This guy does what I think is a good
job demonstrating that Elno's stated reasons (free
speech, liberal bias, censorship) for buying Twitter
were false:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The Problem With Elon Musk<br>
>>>> <a
href="https://youtu.be/WYQxG4KEzvo?si=oXumcC8aqsYMTzdC&t=1487"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://youtu.be/WYQxG4KEzvo?si=oXumcC8aqsYMTzdC&t=1487</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Sure, we can project whatever fantasies
we want into the mind of an oligarch like Elno. But if
we're trying to do a good job, find an explanation
that's "hard to vary" (ala Deutsch), we're left empty
handed. However Timothy Snyder provides us with
something I think's intriguing; and it reflects various
other arguments I've made, here, about TESCREAL <<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL</a>>.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Here's where I heard Snyder's setup:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The New Paganism: How the Postmodern
Became the Premodern<br>
>>>> <a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nr2Q2zGNC8"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nr2Q2zGNC8</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Appended below is Claude's summary of
the talk. But the essence is that these people "believe"
(somehow) they can "take it with them" in a similar way
to the pagans (e.g. Vikings, Egyptians, etc.) believing
they could hoard their stuff and somehow have access to
it in the next life. This reflects well, I think, Musk's
objectives for SpaceX, Tesla, breeding children, etc.
It's somewhere between believing in souls, one's legacy,
and spreading humanity (not biology, of course, but
humanity) throughout the universe.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> My guess is most of our Oligarchs will
give lip service to spiritual beliefs like Christianity
or whatever, but are actually more atheistic in their
ephemerides. But if you spend enough time arguing about
atheism, you consistently find people (even atheistic
people) asking for Purpose (with a capital P). Why are
we here? What should we be doing? Etc. Despite our
overwhelming rationalism/justificationism, many (most?)
of us still seek that grand arch. And those of us who
are *lucky* enough to be extraordinarily successful (in
whatever domain) are at the most risk for this
irrational/fideistic, paganist, TESCREAL Purpose. I
think it's a relatively strong hypothesis for why Musk
bought Twitter.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Claude's summary:<br>
>>>>> - Snyder argues that conventional
explanations based on rationality and interests fail to
adequately explain the rise of right-wing populist
movements and figures like Trump, Putin, and Musk.
Instead, he proposes analyzing these phenomena through
the lens of what he calls "neopaganism."<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - He identifies four key dimensions
of neopaganism: value, sacrifice, charisma, and oracular
truth.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - On value, he argues today's
oligarchs hoard wealth as if they can "take it with
them" after death, similar to pagan burial practices.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - On sacrifice, he contends
oligarchs are sacrificing the earth itself through
climate change, taking the world down with them. Putin's
invasion of Ukraine also has a sacrificial logic.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - Charismatic leaders tell big lies
to create an alternate reality their followers live
inside. Trump and Putin exemplify this.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - Modern technology, especially
smartphones, function as pagan "oracles" - sources of
addictive but often deceptive truth that make us more
stupid over time.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> - Snyder believes the humanities
are crucial for reflecting on these issues and finding a
way out of our current crisis. A narrow, failed
rationality has enabled these destructive dynamics.
What's needed is a richer, more reflective notion of
human freedom.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In summary, Snyder argues we need
to understand the pagan-like irrationality and
destructiveness driving our world today in order to have
any hope of countering it. The humanities provide
essential resources for this task.<br>
>>><br>
><br>
> -- <br>
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
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