<div dir="auto"><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 8, 2024, 7:44 AM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">No. I interact with the bullshit generators enough at work. I don't feel the need to do so in my personal life, as well. But I appreciate the invitation.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Glen, yes "bullshit generators" can be slightly annoying at times ;-p</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Friam is a space to interact with them as I think they hold our collective wisdom and sometimes generate profound insights that I never would have considered on my own. <grin> </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On 8/7/24 19:25, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br>
> Hmmmm! I wonder how Glenn would react to our requesting him to play this game. I hate it because it depends so powerfully on the meanings of the words in the question but I love it because it gives me a number. And of course because of the company it puts me in. Who couldn’t enjoy a game that puts me in the same space as Ludvig Wittgenstein<br>
> <br>
> Glen, will you play? Just for kicks!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> {<br>
> "currentVector": {<br>
> "deterministic": 0.5,<br>
> "reductionism": 0.5,<br>
> "empiricism": 1,<br>
> "materialism": 1,<br>
> "teleology": 0.01<br>
> },<br>
> "closestPhilosophers": [<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Daniel Dennett",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.04"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Werner Heisenberg",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.05"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "David Hume",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.05"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Niels Bohr",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.05"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Ludwig Wittgenstein",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.05"<br>
> }<br>
> ]<br>
> }<br>
> Sent from my Dumb Phone<br>
> <br>
> On Aug 7, 2024, at 2:12 PM, Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Nick,<br>
> <br>
> How do we think about "Telos"? I can't help myself - "Dan wheel out our one-trick TensorPony" :-)<br>
> <br>
> Nick, this time you need to give us your tensor wrt to the philosophers and scientists that have discussed telos according to Dan so I can get a sense of where you are coming from. Copy and paste your result here. And then you can suggest other dimensions or questions to ask to modify the space.<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html</a> <<a href="https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://guerin.acequia.io/telosTensor.html</a>><br>
> <image.png><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dan picked these folks to establish the spanning set of the space.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Philosophers and Scientists on Telos<br>
> <br>
> *Aristotle:* Introduced the concept of telos, arguing that everything in nature has a purpose or goal it strives to achieve, which is fundamental to understanding natural processes.<br>
> <br>
> *David Bohm:* Proposed the theory of the implicate order, suggesting a deeper, orderly reality underlying apparent randomness, resonating with teleological thinking.<br>
> <br>
> *Ludwig Boltzmann:* Focused on statistical mechanics and the behavior of gases, emphasizing probabilistic interactions without invoking purpose.<br>
> <br>
> *Jean-Paul Sartre:* Proposed the existentialist view that life has no inherent meaning, and that individuals must create their own purpose, avoiding teleological explanations.<br>
> <br>
> *Michel Foucault:* Analyzed power, knowledge, and discourse, focusing on societal structures without invoking teleological explanations, instead emphasizing historical and social processes.<br>
> <br>
> *Richard Feynman:* Known for a pragmatic and non-teleological approach to physics, emphasizing mathematical descriptions of physical phenomena without resorting to purpose or goal-directed explanations.<br>
> <br>
> *Immanuel Kant:* Distinguished between appearances and the noumenal world, arguing that teleological judgments are heuristic and do not reflect the actual nature of reality.<br>
> <br>
> *Max Planck:* Believed in a fundamental consciousness underlying reality, stating that all matter originates and exists by virtue of a force governed by a conscious and intelligent mind, suggesting a teleological dimension.<br>
> <br>
> *Erwin Schrödinger:* Explored the fundamental order and purpose in living systems in his work, suggesting that physical laws govern biological processes with an underlying direction.<br>
> <br>
> *Daniel Dennett:* Rejected teleological explanations in favor of evolutionary and mechanistic accounts of consciousness and cognition.<br>
> <br>
> *Friedrich Nietzsche:* Rejected teleological explanations, emphasizing that life and the universe do not have inherent purposes or goals, and critiqued teleological views as human projections.<br>
> <br>
> *Roger Penrose:* Proposed ideas about the cyclical nature of the universe and the role of consciousness in quantum processes, hinting at a purposeful direction in both physical and mental realms.<br>
> <br>
> *Thomas Aquinas:* Integrated Aristotle's ideas into Christian theology, emphasizing that everything in nature has a purpose designed by God.<br>
> <br>
> *Albert Einstein:* Believed in an underlying order and simplicity in the universe, often speaking of the universe as comprehensible and governed by rational principles, which can imply a teleological perspective.<br>
> <br>
> *Ilya Prigogine:* His work on dissipative structures suggests that systems self-organize into ordered states, implying a form of goal-directed evolution toward complexity.<br>
> <br>
> *John Archibald Wheeler:* Suggested that observers play a role in bringing the universe into existence, hinting at a teleological aspect where the universe's structure is influenced by the presence of observers.<br>
> <br>
> *Karl Marx:* Rejected teleological views of history, emphasizing material conditions and class struggles as the drivers of historical change.<br>
> <br>
> *Stephen Guerin:* Explored the idea of autocatalytic processes in the universe's self-organization, indicating a teleological aspect to the evolution of complexity and structure.<br>
> <br>
> *Hans Jonas:* Argued that living organisms exhibit a fundamental purposiveness and that life itself has an inherent teleological nature.<br>
> <br>
> *Henri Poincaré:* Analyzed celestial mechanics and dynamical systems, focusing on deterministic chaos and system behavior without teleological implications.<br>
> <br>
> *James Clerk Maxwell:* Developed equations describing electromagnetic fields in a purely mathematical way, without implying any teleological purpose.<br>
> <br>
> *Jacques Derrida:* Emphasized the instability of meaning and critiqued metaphysical systems that impose teleological structures on language and thought.<br>
> <br>
> *John Archibald Wheeler:* Suggested that observers play a role in bringing the universe into existence, hinting at a teleological aspect where the universe's structure is influenced by the presence of observers.<br>
> <br>
> *Ludwig Wittgenstein:* Focused on the use of language and meaning derived from its context, avoiding metaphysical explanations that imply purpose or goal-directedness.<br>
> <br>
> *Niels Bohr:* Emphasized probabilistic outcomes in quantum mechanics, grounded in empirical observations and avoiding teleological interpretations.<br>
> <br>
> *Paul Dirac:* Developed quantum mechanics and quantum field theory with a focus on mathematical formalisms, describing particle behavior without implying purpose.<br>
> <br>
> *Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:* Proposed an evolutionary teleology where the universe and life progress toward greater complexity and consciousness, culminating in the Omega Point.<br>
> <br>
> *Richard Feynman:* Developed the path integral formulation, suggesting that the universe selects the path that minimizes action, which can be seen as a mathematical form of goal-directed behavior.<br>
> <br>
> *Stuart Kauffman:* Proposed that the universe and life self-organize through autocatalytic processes, indicating a teleological aspect to the development of complexity and order.<br>
> <br>
> *Thomas Aquinas:* Integrated Aristotle's ideas into Christian theology, emphasizing that everything in nature has a purpose designed by God.<br>
> <br>
> *Werner Heisenberg:* Described fundamental limits on measurement and predictability through the uncertainty principle, avoiding any notion of purpose in physical systems.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Here's my result copied using the "copy my Elos Tensor" button on the page showing the closest philosopher/scientists to me, according to Dan.<br>
> <br>
> <image.png><br>
> <br>
> {<br>
> "currentVector": {<br>
> "deterministic": 0.1,<br>
> "reductionism": 0.1,<br>
> "empiricism": 0.1,<br>
> "materialism": 0.1,<br>
> "teleology": 1<br>
> },<br>
> "closestPhilosophers": [<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Stephen Guerin",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.00"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Aristotle",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.23"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Plato",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.25"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "David Bohm",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.30"<br>
> },<br>
> {<br>
> "name": "Ilya Prigogine",<br>
> "cosineDistance": "0.32"<br>
> }<br>
> ]<br>
> }<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 3:09 PM Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Dear Phellow Phriammers,<br>
> <br>
> Ever since the days of Hywel White (GRHS) I have puzzled over the fact that telic language so often appears in physics discussions. I used to tease Hywel that Psychology must be the Mother of Physics, because he had to use psychological terms to describe the motion of particles. More recently, I have the same sort of discussions with Stephen Guerin who wants to use telic language concerning the path of photons and least action. (I hope I have this right, Stephen). You all have been tempted to think I am just trolling, but I don't think I am. I think there may be places where such descriptions are appropriate. I do think, for instance, that the relation between the first derivative of a function and any point in that function is analogous to the relation between the motivation of a behavior and the behavior itself.<br>
> <br>
> i am back to weather again, after a vacation from it for my obsession with unsuccessful vegetable gardening. Here is a quote from an Atmospheric Dynamics text which is laying out the Coriolis Force.<br>
> <br>
> *What happens if we consider the hockey puck moving equator-ward relative to the rotation of the Earth. In the absence of applied forces it /must/ conserve angular momentum. Upon being pulled equator-ward in the northern hemisphere the radius of rotation of the puck begins to increase.Consequently, an anti-rotational relative motion/develops/ /in order to/ conserve angular momentum, /[Italics by NST/] *<br>
> <br>
> In the view of folks on this list, is this an appropriate use of telic language, and why or why not? Stephen has a defensible argument in favor of it's appropriateness, the only such argument I have ever heard. ( I don[t buy the premises, but the argument is sound) I am wondering about the rest of you.<br>
> <br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br>
<br>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
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