<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">The earliest instances of LLMs apparently did not have this kind of obsequiousness. I remember reading about people getting (I think it was v.1, or beta, of chatGPT) getting crafting long conversations on "dark' topics. One in particular involved the LLM becoming a very convincing, so the story went, Domme. Also, several racist and misogynist rants. The algorithms were very quickly changed to prevent this.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Wed, Aug 14, 2024, at 10:44 AM, steve smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"></span><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Marcus wrote:<br></span><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"></span></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985EC5B207DE5E3D801F293C5872@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">The recent
results about AI Models collapsing when trained on
recursively generated data seems to me to apply to this kind
of human political activity as well.</span><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"><a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y" class="qt-moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y</a></span><br></p></div></blockquote><div>I think the MAGA machine is collapsing under this weight as we
speak, and it may have risen in the wake of the a similar collapse
of it's parent GOP/TeaParty and it's antiChrist Liberal/Progressive
ness.<br></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985EC5B207DE5E3D801F293C5872@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Btw, is
there a disagreeable LLM bot out there? Whenever I chat
with LLMs, I get a lot of accommodation. </span><br></p></div></blockquote><p>Per "the other thread" here, I believe this design bias was
installed to "enhance coherence" but that it is "ham fisted" and
limits what human-LLM interaction is capable of.<br></p><p>In my open-ended experiments with LLMs (GPT in particular) I have
tried to steer it away from this as well as trying to renormalize
my own response to that amiability. I don't seek to pick fights
with it, but I work hard not to let it mollify me with flattery or
amiability.<br></p><p>I don't need the sinister "What are you doing Dave?" of HAL but I
do get very tired of it's obsequiousness, it takes work to balance
that I could put maybe more productively in seeking a more genuine
"coherence"?<br></p><p>I hope there is serious work going on there.<br></p><p><br></p><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985EC5B207DE5E3D801F293C5872@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br></p><div style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(181, 196, 223);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><b><span style="color:black;"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt;">From: </span></span></b><span style="color:black;"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt;">Friam <a class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Frank
Wimberly <a class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"><wimberly3@gmail.com></a><br> <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, August 13, 2024 at 5:40 PM<br> <b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br> <b>Subject: </b>[FRIAM] This makes me think of this
list...</span></span></p></div><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br></p></div><div><table class="qt-MsoNormalTable" style="background-color:white;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;border-collapse:collapse;width:auto !important;table-layout:auto !important;" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width:100%;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;" width="100%"><div align="center"><table class="qt-MsoNormalTable" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:auto !important;table-layout:auto !important;" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width:100%;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;" width="100%"><br></td></tr><tr><td style="width:100%;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;" width="100%"><br></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div><br></div></td></tr><tr><td style="width:100%;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;" width="100%"><div align="center"><table class="qt-MsoNormalTable" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:auto !important;table-layout:auto !important;" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width:100%;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;" width="100%"><h4 style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0in;text-align:center;line-height:24pt;" align="center"><a href="https://link.newyorker.com/click/36396552.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"><span class="size" style="font-size:18pt;">Are
We Living in the Age of
Info-Determinism?</span></a><span class="size" style="font-size:18pt;"></span><br></h4><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.25in;margin-left:0in;line-height:18pt;"><i><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;">Increasingly,
our networks seem to be steering our
history in ways we don’t like and
can’t control.</span></i><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;"></span><br></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:9pt;margin-left:0in;"><a href="https://link.newyorker.com/click/36396552.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"><span style="padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;"><img style="width:0.3333in;height:0.3333in;" id="qt-_x0000_i1025" alt="Image
removed by sender. Image may
contain: Person, Advertisement,
Poster, and Art" width="32" height="32" border="0"></span></span></a><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;"></span></span><br></p><div><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.25in;margin-left:0in;line-height:12pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt;"><a href="https://link.newyorker.com/click/36396552.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"><span style="color:black;"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="size" style="font-size:8.5pt;">Illustration
by Josie Norton</span></span></span></a></span></span><span style="color:rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="size" style="font-size:8.5pt;"></span></span></span><br></p></div><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.25in;margin-left:0in;line-height:18pt;"><b><span class="font" style="font-family:"inherit", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;">“Call it
info-determinism:</span></span></b><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;"> the belief
that the ways that information flows
through the world are actually a kind
of web in which we’re ensnared,”
Joshua Rothman writes. The Internet
can make it feel as though information
is endless, and access can make
everyone feel like an expert—or, at
least, an expert subreddit debater.
The sense that there is always more to
know undermines the authority of an
article or an institution, as does the
thriving trade, among those debaters,
in the disassembly of ideas. Rothman’s
column, </span><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt;"><a href="https://link.newyorker.com/click/36396552.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"><span style="color:black;"><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;">Open
Questions</span></span></a></span><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;">, unpacks
open-ended queries each week. Today,
he considers: What is information?
Does it matter if it’s true? Are we
trapped?</span><br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.25in;text-align:center;line-height:18pt;min-height:48px;" align="center"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt;"><a href="https://link.newyorker.com/click/36396552.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"><span style="color:white;background-color:black;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11.5pt;">Read
the story</span></span></span></a></span><span class="size" style="font-size:13.5pt;"></span><br></p></td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">---<br> Frank C. Wimberly<br> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br> Santa Fe, NM 87505<br> <br> 505 670-9918<br> Santa Fe, NM</span></p></div></div></div><div><br></div><pre class="qt-moz-quote-pre">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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