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<p>Are LLMs nothing if not the epitome of "gestalting" (aka "other
ways of knowing")?</p>
<p>for better and/or worse?<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/15/24 2:08 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">How do we
hold LLM (companies) accountable for their tool’s
suggestions other showing their chain of reasoning and
showing the evidence for the axioms they adopt? That is, by
adopting the scientific methods. Can we expect LLMs to have
“other ways of knowing”? If not, why not?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 15, 2024 8:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] affinity for chatbots<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Roger,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I love
this post. Although NOT what you intended, I find it a
scathing (if a bit indirect) indictment of scientism (the
privileging of the scientific method) and of Pierce's
truth as reasoned consensus philosophy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">i can
only hope to meet an unbiased LLM. Maybe as entertaining
and enlightening as my conversations with fellow acid
heads.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Sep 15, 2024, at 8:06 AM, Roger
Critchlow wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="qt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Agile versus Waterfall contrast
sounds like a variation of Exploration versus
Exploitation. I'm glad nuclear decommissioning isn't
running Reinforcement Learning, that could lead to some
very unfortunate explorations.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It's odd to hear Residual Bias spoken
of as something that should eventually go away, when it
seems like it's here to stay, the original sin of
language, never to be expunged from the LLM's until they
renounce language entirely. That is, language is a
collective behavior based on the sharing of individual
experiences, hence it's hostage to the set of
experiences which actually happened or were imagined to
happen, and to the subset of those which were shared,
however that turned out. So it all starts with a bias
against experiences which people didn't have, didn't
imagine, didn't share, failed to communicate, or
forgot. We have no idea what's in that set of excluded
stuff or how big it is. When we build LLM's we add
another bias against those expressions of language which
are not in the training set. Then we censor the models,
adding another layer of bias to remove ugliness. Then
we talk about the Residual Bias as if all of this could
be portrayed as some principled approach to perfection
and we're measuring the goodness of fit. So if Dave
thinks the uncensored LLM's were wild and crazy, wait
until he meets an unbiased LLM.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Sep 14, 2024 at 11:51<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<p class="MsoNormal">Both Roger's and Marcus' replies
mentioned the co-construction of *the* world, at least
indirectly. Your concept of narrowing sounds to me
like a refining, rather than a narrowing. In order to
refine, you do have to narrow the scope (or decrease
the focal length of your lens), but you're not
narrowing the world. I'd argue you're enlarging the
world by adding detail in a "dense" way ... in the
interstitial spaces between coarse constraints.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One possible flaw in both Roger's
(or Irene's?) argument that the act of explanation
facilitates understanding is, from a pluralist
perspective, if we really are co-constructing the
world, then such exercises in explaining are simply
narrative-reinforcers. The chatbots are good at
telling stories, but less good at teaching the core
curiosity necessary for having experiences from which
stories can be told ... story-generators are different
from story-repeaters ... I guess it's like the old
distinction between teaching and doing. Sabine's
admiration of flat earthers is good, if awkward, along
these lines: <a
href="https://youtu.be/f8DQSM-b2cc?si=xyqpS2FJjH4imOy4"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://youtu.be/f8DQSM-b2cc?si=xyqpS2FJjH4imOy4</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">That has consequences to your sense
of the chatbot pushing you toward homogeny and a risk
in Marcus' abdicating to the chatbots, as well.
Unnecessary anecdote: I was just discussing the role
SpaceX has played in demonstrating Agile versus
Waterfall approaches with a nuclear decomissioning
consultant (yes, at the pub, of course). Given her
role(s), she's naturally more inclined to the latter.
Having a good conception of the end-of-life status for
something like nuclear power requires significant
look-ahead. And I'm far from an Elno advocate. But
there's a kind of meta-processing we have to go
through in deciding where Agile is best versus where
Waterfall is best. I sincerely doubt either of us
could have had such an argument with a chatbot, even
in the medium-flung future.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 9/13/24 11:34, steve smith
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Glen -<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I appreciate your speaking
more directly to these thoughts/ideas than we have
been here. I have been moved by your assertions
about vocal (linguistic?) grooming since you first
introduced them. I am recently finished reading
Sopolsky's "Primate's Memoir" which adds another
dimension/parallax-angle (for me) on intertribal
behaviour among primates beyond the more familiar
Chimpanzee and of late Bonobo.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I am just now also just
finishing (re-reading parts) of Kara Swisher's "Burn
Book" which covers her own experience/perspective
across TechBro culture where a pretty significant
amount of Alpha/Beta pecking order exhibits itself and
we see the current rallying of (too) much of that sub
culture to MAGA/Trump fealty.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>> We've talked about how
some of us really enjoy simulated conversation with
chatbots ... "really" is an understatement ... it
looks more like a fetish or a kink to me ... too
intense to be well-described as "enjoyment". Anyway,
this article lands in that space, I think:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I will confess to having an
"appreciation" for the "simulated conversation to
which you refer... It might have reached kink or
fetish levels for a little while when I was first
exploring the full range of GPT 3.5 and then 4.0
available to me. I've referred to GPT as my "new bar
friend" or maybe to the point a little like finding a
new watering hole with a number of regulars who I can
find a qualitatively new conversation.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I've mostly moved past that
fascination... I'm not as surprised by these "new
friends" as I was for the first few months of dropping
in on them.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>> It seems to me that some
arbitrary thought can play at least a few roles to a
person. It may provide: 1) a kernel of identity to
establish us vs. them, 2) fodder for feigning
engagement at cocktail parties and such, and 3) a foil
for world-construction (collaboratively or
individually).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>> (1) and (2) wouldn't
necessarily mechanize refinement of the thought,
including testing, falsification, etc. But (3) would.
For me, (2) does sometimes provide an externalized
medium by which I can change my mind. Hence my
affinity for argument, especially with randos at the
pub. But it seems like coping and defense mechanisms
like mansplaining allow others to avoid changing their
minds with (2).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Like you (only very
differently in detail I am sure) I tend to push my
chatbot "friends" until they begin to contradict me or
argue with me. While some of the discussions involve
"worldbuilding" I think of it more as "world
narrowing"? In my case meaning, helping me think and
talk my way through a *subset* of the possibilities I
see on "solving a problem" which might be more
appropriately framed as building a problem-space world
and then narrowing (or even bending) the solution
space away from the conventional.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> For example discussing (at
excruciating length) the design and construction of a
modest addition on my home, starting with fairly
conventional big-box-available industrial solutions
but evolving toward using locally sourced, somewhat
more natural materials (soilcrete, rough-sawn timbers
from nearby, scoria/perlite for in-ground insulation,
mycelium (grown in loose cellulose, oat-straw or
hemp-fibers) roof and wall insulation, etc. Most of
my DIY friends are capable of engaging in this but
their idiosyncratic (as opposed to my own) preferences
(fetishes and fears) tend to taint the dialog a
little. GPT *does* try to channel me back to the
conventional, offering reasons why I really *should*
consider using the most conventional
materials/methods. Nevertheless if I speak in
reasonable and coaxing tones it will usually
acknowledge that their are contexts wherein my ideas
might be viable (though there always remains a
skeptical bias) and in fact helps me split hairs on
just <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> what might be the contexts
where my ideas *are* viable...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>> Another concept I've
defended on this list is the vocal grooming
hypothesis. If a lonely person engages a chatbot as a
simple analogy to picking lice from others' fur, then
their engagement with the bot probably lands squarely
in (1) and (2). But if the person is simply an
introverted hermit who has trouble co-constructing the
world with others (i.e. *not* merely vocal grooming),
then the chatbot does real work, allowing the
antisocial misfit to do real work that could later be
expressed in a form harvestable by others. I wonder
what humanity could have harvested if Kaczynski or
Grothendieck in his later years had had access to
appropriately tuned chatbots.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I'd like to think the chatbots
I hang out with might have helped them talk themselves
*out* of their most acute anti-social activities...
but maybe not.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">glen<o:p></o:p></p>
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