<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>BTW if my intro sounded sarcastic, the sarcasm was directed at
myself, not at Glen or his submission... I truly do get a strong
hit of occult or arcane, more likely the latter which I want to
suss out, but (as my sarcasm indicates) I know I often lose the
plot (the scent) to stay en-metaphor...<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/30/24 12:20 PM, steve smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0374ed4e-55eb-b883-4b9c-1da7e9d60e6c@swcp.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>As usual, I am finding a strong hint of a whiff of something
profound in Glen's references here, but I will probably biff my
response/elaboration with my heady excitement: <br>
</p>
<p>I had to <i>find</i> Vico and refresh myself on Rawls: <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p> <strong>Giambattista Vico</strong>, an 18th-century
philosopher best known for his work on the <strong>cyclical
nature of history</strong> and the importance of <strong>human
culture in shaping social laws</strong>. Vico believed that
history and society are not purely subject to rational,
mechanistic laws like those found in nature but are instead
shaped by human creativity, language, and culture. His work
emphasizes that <strong>humans create their own social
realities</strong> and that knowledge of society comes from
within the context of lived human experience, rather than
abstract, external analysis.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>and<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>John Rawls</strong>, a 20th-century political
philosopher known for his theory of <strong>justice as
fairness</strong>. In rapidly changing social contexts, a
Rawlsian perspective might emphasize <strong>fairness,
equality, and social justice</strong>, particularly through
the use of the <strong>original position</strong> and the <strong>veil
of ignorance</strong>. These are thought experiments where
individuals design societal rules without knowing their future
position in society, ensuring fairness for all, especially the
most disadvantaged. Such ideas could shape debates on how to
manage fairness in dynamic social transformations.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I definitely appreciate the (re)normalization of the more
familiar contemporary use of "elite" as some kind of slur or
dismissal. And the differentiation into "which elites to trust"
or perhaps more explicitely which *kind* of elites? And "why am
I susceptible to their influence, practical or emotional?"<br>
</p>
<p>I'd say that Musk (aka elno) present's multiple elite facets,
perhaps beginning with his "White South African youth during
Apartheid while reading too much old-fashioned SF and being
driven by strong-willed parents and subculture" to his
serendipitous entry into the growing .COM bubble of the late 90s
and even more serendipitous jump from that bubble to the one
forming behind it (Tech 2.0 ?) which seems to have become more
of a (geologic style) vesicle or even a biological style (where
the robustness is transitory and utilitarian?). <br>
</p>
<p>Since his abject wealth kicked in (late 2010s?) he seems to
have begun to approach that limit of "absolute wealth ==>
absolute corruption". Is the wealthiest jerkball on the planet
by definiition the absolutely wealthiest? I forget the rumors
about Putin that he is likely "abjectly" more wealthy than elno
skum hisself? Maybe by 1 or 2 digit factors? His disruption of
at least EVs and (recoverable) Orbital Launch (soon to include
Moon Landings and Mars Missions?) is another type of eliteism
which is a combination of tech and risk management? His parlay
of these dimensions of eliteism into social manipulation with
Twitter/X and now ffFFing presidential RealPolitik is an
entirely new level which I would claim rivals (mimics?) Trump's
own ability to twist (contemporary intersubjective) reality off
it's existing axis pretty effectively.</p>
<p>The variety of "elites" of interest might range from the likes
of well-known politicians of any stripe (from Cheneys to
Clintons) to well known Bureacratic figures (notably Anthony
Fauci or Jerome Powell or Ban ki-Moon) to social commentarians
(Jon Stewart or Michael Moore to Alex Jones and Anne Coulter) to
(myriad) tech commentators like Hossenfelder or Fridman or Rutt
or Doctorow or Levin or fictional/proxy movements like
Antifa/Anonymous/Q ... I probably missed wide swaths like
Enviro/Climateers (Thunberg, McKibben) or popFutureFictioneers
(Stephenson, KSR, King, Atwood, etc.) or PopSci influencers like
Kurzweil or Chomsky or Wilson or Gould or Dennett or Pollan or
Dyson or Pinker or Diamond or Gladwell or Harari or or or (ad
nauseum)... <br>
</p>
<p>And as for Truth (or delusional belief?), the distinction
between physical reality (blurred as some would like it to be)
and intersubjective reality is significant (even if an acute
illusion as simulationists or interfaceinists (Hoffman) or
quantum-reality-ists or panpsychists (like DaveW and I?) or
...). The rhetorical world of (especially national?)
Politics seems to enhance this to the point that it sometimes
feels as if "nothing is real" even if most of us most of the
time don't step in front of busses nor eat wild-foraged fungi we
haven't identified carefully. </p>
<p>I also identify as an "almost dead privied white man" to
perhaps of a somewhat different stripe than Glen and I am
starting to *fear* that the "almost dead" horizon is moving away
from me at a pace that hasn't overtaken my own aging but
might. Having just had my first major bionic implant
(excluding a good dozen dental fillings/caps in my youth) and
experiencing the ultra-high-tech capability of modern surgical
and diagnostic and imaging and hospitalization Medicine, I am
askeered that I will, as one of my parent's generation quipped
"have all the acute problems of previous generations resolved
until I find myself 'very old and dying of nothing in
particular'" which in fact is how my own parents lived roughly
20 years past their expiry dates (as projected in their youth to
be 70 and 72). <br>
</p>
<p>No matter what my Whitelash Male-Rights friends might suggest,
I do feel much more "privied" than I ever realized as I was
experiencing the most acute experiences of it (in my
testosterone-driven ambitious years). <br>
</p>
<p>The biggest privilege seems to be to be "still alive" after one
or two digit percentage of my cohort no longer is (starting with
car crashes in our teens followed by military mishaps to
drug-related misdeeds, followed by any number of early health
challenges)... beyond that I feel privileged to live in "a
horrible country" (both Left and Right tell me this) under "the
worst form of government" and with a very bad record of
first-world disregard for third-world and non-human, non
mammalian, non-vertebrate, non-animal life and maybe even more
spectacular "the biosphere itself". Pretty soon, if ElnoSkum
(and JiffBozos and others) have their way we will begin the same
abuses beyond earth orbit (where it is already pretty
trashy?)... <br>
</p>
<p>I also feel "privied" that I "got in" on the Capitalist and
Homeowner game early/well enough in life to not worry about
access to basics (Bed, Bread, and Bath) with a small reserve to
do things like buy (well used, but not used up) automobiles that
can drive across the continent at the drop of a credit card and
new (or nearly) electronics only one generation behind the new
and novel and maintain good internet connectivity (though orders
of magnitude below that which I hear folks here claiming the
have and/or need?)... and now that Uncle Joe has blessed me
with Medicare (after 65) it appears I can trade some of the
luxury end of these other things for some basic medical
care... and some advanced as well (replace a joint or two
at-will?). <br>
</p>
<p>While some of my public presentation might make me a good
target for Trump's second line Internment and Ejection camps in
2025, I know I'll more likely die of old age (i.e. nothing in
particular) or a minor mistake in the hyper-cautious, high-tech
world of Medicine (or self driving Cars, or exploding electronic
devices) or bad judgement when dealing with my mains power or
some jury rigged Solar addition I make to it.</p>
<p>Re: Procreation. I'm glad to be living in these "interesting
times" and by extension am glad for my children (yet more
privied despite being "girlz" ) and grandchildren (probably both
end up a-gendered over time) to be living in "yet more"
interesting times? My parents were avid ZPG fans in the 50s
and I carried it forward with my own progeny opting for NPG
(replacement rate <.5). I don't know if I infected them
with enough of my "morbid fascination meme" to be enjoying the
ride as we precess into a wild tech-driven vortex of
theTechnoSingularity that seems now inevitable in their (if not
my own) lifespan. Irony would suggest that it is all going
truly <i>HellInAHamburgerBasket</i> the millisecond after Ray
Kurzweil dies... The "fall line" of an exponential curve is
wherever you are standing at the moment methinks?</p>
<p>As my peers all seek to flee TrumpAMurrica if he
slips-slides-slimes his way back into office I am thinking it is
my "civic duty" to stay put and "fight the good fight" even if
it is to be fodder for his cannons (or deportment Trebuchets?)
or inertial/viscous mass to slow down (stuck to the bottom of)
the tread of his JackBoots (with inserts to help with the bone
spurs)... I missed my chance in 1974 to expatriate myself and
as tempting as it sounds now, I also find pleasure in being the
gum in his gears if it comes to that. Or maybe after the Dems
manage to squeeze him back into the BrylCream tube he squirted
out of I can be the fodder/gum for *their* worst instincts? <br>
</p>
<p><i>Gramble</i>,</p>
<p> - Sieve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/30/24 7:29 AM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:82781f79-9015-4753-92ff-a24895e951c8@gmail.com">Yeah,
but the composition of physical laws up into the composites that
make up social laws isn't straightforward. Maybe I could stomach
the assumption of transitivity from, say, "biological laws" to
"social laws", but not physical laws to social laws. The
transitivity fails. <br>
<br>
I can't tell where I actually land in the spectrum between Eric
and Dave's positions. I really like the idea that those who have
their hands inside the goo, inside the machine, close to the
metal, are the ones who decide how best to interact with the
machine. As Dave once accused, it's a bit Vico-ist. On the other
hand, our collective respect for (delusional belief in?) the
Truth fades faster each day. The elites are exhibiting faster
rates of churn. (E.g. Elno and SpaceX overturning tried and
true, "modernist", methods for engineering space machines. E.g.
a top-notch Data Science postdoc might cost a university
~$1M/yr, which means they all abandon the academy and go to work
for Google or somesuch. Etc.) <br>
<br>
And with such a turbulent churn of the elite production system,
it's completely reasonable to be confused about which elites to
trust - or which side of their mouth to trust. Luckily, I hold
Diogenes in high esteem, which allows me to doubt everything ...
regardless of EricC and Nick's claim that's impossible. So it's
no crisis for this almost-dead privied white man. But the kids?
What will they see on the other side of this Rawlsian Veil? I'm
so thankful I have no children. </blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>