<div dir="ltr"><div>Steve, <br></div><div><br></div><div>You called on me to steelman the idea that our problems arise from having antique emotional systems in a very ugly non antique world. Glen's stern judgement looms over me. <br></div><div><br></div><div>In a general way, the idea that adaptations persist beyond their sell-by date is absolutely essential to evolution. How else could a trait be selected-out if it did not occur where it shouldn't be, so to speak. There are some interesting examples of such persistence from the research of Richard Coss on prairie dog defensive adaptations against rattlesnakes. There is a portion of the West (NE California, I think) where prairie dogs still live ;but rattlesnakes no longer do. The prairie dogs have no resistance to snake venom; however, they still have behavioral adaptations against snakes, even though the population has not been exposed to them for 100 thousand years. So, it's certainly possible. (I hope I haven't garbled the facts too much here). <br></div><div><br></div><div>But, returning to my strawmanning, notice how specific the example is, of prairie dogs retaining a particular a particular response to a particular set of circumstances that they only encounter when the experimenter presents them. How much that contrasts with hand waving about lizard brains and encapsulated emotion modules passed down through the generations! <br></div><div><br></div><div>Mind you, although you rightly sense my skepticism, I have not ruled the idea out. I have only asked that somebody put some feathers on it so I can see if it flies. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Ever your friend, <br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 5:49 PM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Nick -</p>
<p> And here I thought *I* was being "pithy", then you call me
out on my lithp?! ;^)</p>
<p> The strawman arguments have started coming out, I wonder if
anyone will gen up a steelman?</p>
<p>- tinman Steve</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 10/5/24 11:26 AM, Nicholas Thompson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So in what sense and for what purposes is this pithy
aphorism useful? What exactly is the pith?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If a metaphor, what is truth in the metaphor, the positive
analog. Nobody ever said that all metaphors are <i>entirely</i>
wrong.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>and yes, I am being pissy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>n<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at
11:04 AM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<blockquote>
<p>All <i>Pithy Aphorisms</i> are wrong, some are useful?<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<div>On 10/5/24 9:06 AM, Prof David West wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Arial">my affection for the quote
derives from a metaphorical reading, not a literal one.
Something akin to Steve's differential rates of
evolution. I also would have eschewed 'god like' in
favor of 'magical' ala Clarke's dictum about any
sufficiently advanced technology.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, at 8:46 PM, Nicholas Thompson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="m_-8300386873695854652m_3719146269230241149qt">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think that this way of talking about emotions
precludes careful thought. First of all,
neurologizing emotions is just to hide the pea under
the wrong thimble. I don't think paleolithologizig
helps much more. Glen is correct that, whatever an
emotion is, its inputs and outputs are
ontogenetically and culturally determined. So,
fear, for instance, is a relation between something
that we take to be threatening and something that we
hope will be avoidance. Inputs and outputs are
everything. The rest is just arousal.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>N<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 7:01 PM steve
smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Emotions/Limbic systems evolve at genetic
rates, institutions evolve at <br>
</div>
<div> social/cultural rates (maybe the fastest
significant change can <br>
</div>
<div> happen/resolve is in multiple lifetimes?) but
technology is advancing at <br>
</div>
<div> must faster rates?<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Or is this wrong(headed) also?<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> On 10/4/24 3:43 PM, glen wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > None of that is true, however romantic it
might sound. Depending on <br>
</div>
<div> > how one defines "emotion", that smells
the most true. But the <br>
</div>
<div> > mechanisms of emotion are as coupled to
current reality as is every <br>
</div>
<div> > part of our bodies. To suggest that, say,
the Space Force or methods <br>
</div>
<div> > like quantitative easing are medieval is
just nonsense. Technology is <br>
</div>
<div> > more democratized than it has ever been.
Granted, it takes (a lot) of <br>
</div>
<div> > work to familiarize oneself with
something like how GPS works or how <br>
</div>
<div> > to NOT click on that phishing email. But
to suggest that it's <br>
</div>
<div> > "godlike" says more about the person than
it does about the state of <br>
</div>
<div> > technology.<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > On 10/4/24 11:16, Prof David West wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> >> /"The real problem of humanity is the
following: we have Paleolithic <br>
</div>
<div> >> emotions, medieval institutions, and
godlike technology. And it is <br>
</div>
<div> >> terrifically dangerous."/ Edward O.
Wilson.<br>
</div>
<div> >><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
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<div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br>
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div>
<div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div>
<div>Clark University</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div><div>Clark University</div><div><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a></div><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a></div></div>