<div dir="ltr"><div>sorry.</div><div><br></div><div>....discredited 30 years earlier (in the 50's)<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Marcus - I tried to sort your point... I appreciated the
(simplistic but potent?) NYT American Myths bit, but not clear if
we are talking about the same Kazcynski? While he did (obviously)
take the position colinear with "might makes right" ("right
justifies might?") I don't think he was ever a proponent of taking
from the planet or any *other* excepting the lives (and will to
continue) of those who would through willful ignorance or ignorant
willfulness do thus themselves?<br>
</p>
<p>A few years ago Mary's movie buff son in Austin took us to see
Errol Flynn's "American Dharma" which reflects her son's affection
for Errol Flynn's work as much as his disgust with Bannon. It's
title, drawn from Bannon's own use of the term dharma as "one's
moral duty or destiny". That *does* seem to be what these three
creatures (characters, caricatures?) might have in common? Their
individual ideosyncratic views of what their "righteous paths"
might be? I'm no fan of any of the three, but they *do* seem to
be pretty authentic to their inner twisted sense of "self" and
"destiny"?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 10/5/24 12:32 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">The myths of
America seems to be at the root of so much of this. The
idea that we can take from the planet (or the solar system)
from the “other”, and each other with no consequence somehow
gets rationalized by the likes of Kaczynski, Musk, or Bannon
as the essential property of freedom. Exploitation and the
exercise of power is all there is, in this view.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/05/opinion/trump-harris-american-myths.html?unlocked_article_code=1.P04.XPoB.77hNAmC3lb8K&smid=url-share" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/05/opinion/trump-harris-american-myths.html?unlocked_article_code=1.P04.XPoB.77hNAmC3lb8K&smid=url-share</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>steve smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 5, 2024 9:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] nice quote<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">A belief
later espoused by the Unabomber. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p>My "Gaia Shrugs more Bigly" may well be me channeling ole
Kaczynski hisself. I think Wilson's quote was in his 2000ish
"Conscilience"? I don't know if K made a similar
observation? I did read his manifesto back in the day but it
is long integrated into my (weakly) associative memory
(tinyLLM?).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><For whomever might care or remember><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>At LAN(S)L the mailroom/system ramped up their worries that
the Unabomber might (obviously?) target one of us... I think
it was triggered by the first death (1985) he caused? This
lasted about a year, and then the Cold war had thawed, the
Iron Curtain fallen, and USSR disbanded (sortof) and all their
Nukes were called home.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>It did lead to a lot of discussion (both in 85 and 95) about
the various orders or hierarchies of presumed moral
responsibility/implications around the work we did (ranging
from presumably fundamentally ?purely? humanitarian through
variations on mundane to the variations on acutely inhumane
(EWPs, EMPs, Davy Crockett, etc). <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>This was not a new conversation (e.g. Oppenheimer, et al vs
Teller et al, etc) and it spread from "might we ignite the
atmosphere?" to "gray goo" and bioterror speculations. I was
proud that (at least) a few Weapon's Designers/Cold Warriors
starting with Oppy, continuing with Agnew and Hecker unto
Pedecini. I'm far from current (well over a decade... dunno
if anyone is chatting this up inside LANL anymore?)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Re: Kaczynski: I often forget how close we live to Florence
ADX Supermax until I drive that route to/from Denver which
reminds me of the myriad ?terrorists/criminals/psychopaths?
(homegrown and imported) we've experienced in my adulthood.<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p><strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">ADX
Florence</span></strong> (also known as the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">United
States Penitentiary, Administrative Maximum Facility</span></strong>
or "Supermax") in <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Florence,
Colorado</span></strong>, is a high-security federal
prison that houses some of the most notorious and dangerous
criminals in the U.S. The facility is known for its extreme
security measures and solitary confinement practices. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Here are some of the more notable inmates who are housed at
ADX Florence who have variously used mail, shoes, underwear,
rental trucks, and airliners to bomb their targets somewhat
unconcerned about collateral:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">1.
Ted Kaczynski (The Unabomber)</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: A former mathematician and
domestic terrorist responsible for a nationwide
bombing campaign between 1978 and 1995, which killed
three people and injured 23.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 1998).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">2.
Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: The infamous Mexican drug
lord and former leader of the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sinaloa
Cartel</span></strong>, one of the most powerful
drug trafficking organizations in the world.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Notoriety</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Known for his daring prison
escapes in Mexico and his role in drug-related
violence. He was extradited to the U.S. in 2017,
convicted in 2019, and sentenced to life in prison.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment plus 30
years (since 2019).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">3.
Ramzi Yousef</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: The mastermind behind the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">1993
World Trade Center bombing</span></strong>, which
killed six people and injured over 1,000.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Other
Notable Acts</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: He was also involved in the
<strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Bojinka
Plot</span></strong>, a plan to bomb multiple
airliners.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment plus 240
years (since 1998).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">4.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: One of the perpetrators of
the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">2013
Boston Marathon bombing</span></strong>, which
killed three people and injured over 260 others.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Status</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Initially sentenced to
death in 2015, though there have been legal challenges
and appeals regarding the sentence.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Currently sentenced to
death, pending appeals.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">5.
Richard Reid (The "Shoe Bomber")</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Reid attempted to detonate
explosives hidden in his shoes during a <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">2001
American Airlines flight</span></strong> from
Paris to Miami.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
the possibility of parole (since 2003).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">6.
Zacarias Moussaoui</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Convicted for his role in
the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">9/11
attacks</span></strong>, though he was not one of
the hijackers. He was found guilty of conspiring with
al-Qaeda to commit terrorism.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 2006).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">7.
Robert Hanssen</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: A former FBI agent
convicted of <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">spying
for the Soviet Union and Russia</span></strong>
for more than two decades. His actions are considered
one of the worst intelligence breaches in U.S.
history.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 2002).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">8.
Terry Nichols</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: An accomplice in the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">1995
Oklahoma City bombing</span></strong>, which
killed 168 people and injured hundreds. The attack was
the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in U.S.
history at the time.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 1997).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">9.
Eric Rudolph</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: The perpetrator of the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">1996
Centennial Olympic Park bombing</span></strong> in
Atlanta, which killed two people and injured more than
100. Rudolph was also responsible for bombing abortion
clinics and a gay nightclub.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 2005).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">10.
Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab (The "Underwear Bomber")</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Abdulmutallab attempted to
detonate an explosive device hidden in his underwear
during a <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">2009
flight to Detroit</span></strong>.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 2012).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">11.
Mutulu Shakur</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: A former member of the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Black
Liberation Army</span></strong> and stepfather of
rapper <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Tupac
Shakur</span></strong>, he was convicted for his
role in a series of armed robberies in the 1980s,
including the <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Brinks
armored truck robbery</span></strong>, which left
two police officers and a guard dead.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: 60 years, released on
parole in 2022.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<h3><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">12.
Michael Swango</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">:</span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Crime</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: A former doctor and serial
killer who was convicted of poisoning patients and
colleagues.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Sentence</span></strong><span style="font-size:10pt">: Life imprisonment without
parole (since 2000).</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt">And let's not forget Woody
Harrelson's Father, the gangland hitman extra-ordinaire ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt">I believe we have our own
(near) Weatherman in house?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>steve smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 4, 2024 11:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] nice quote</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"The
real problem of humanity is the following: we have
Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and
godlike technology. And it is terrifically
dangerous."</span></i><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
Edward O. Wilson.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>This is a favorite quote for me of late... the challenge,
methinks is "what am I going to do about it?"<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>I try to resolve these questions for myself before I get
too carried away trying to prescribe anything for anyone
else (especially large scale/global solutions), yet it is
useful to keep this in mind whilst considering what I think
is 'best for the collective'.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Maturing and Aging have offered me some perspective and
relief from the emotional component (especially the
fight/flight reproduce-at-all cost hormone driven ones).
Similarly I've now seen (and studied) a variety of
socio-economic-political systems enough to have at least
vaguely informed opinions about them (unlike the totally
mis-informed ones I had leading me to vote Reagan in over
Carter as my first vote). The technological question is
more near and dear to my heart having been simultaneously
(or alternately?) a technophile and a luddite.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>I have dabbled in 19th century (and earlier) technology to
help ground my grounding in the mid-late 20th century I grew
up as part of the background. I've been lucky enough to
engage some with 21st century tech early by virtue of
working at an over-funded scientific laboratory which often
either had access to or was developing for it's own
ideosyncratic reasons, things which the public wouldn't see
or maybe even hear about for decades. It was heady. But
also disturbing. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Yuval Harari's latest book <i>Nexus</i>, touches on the
implications of our "information technology" development
over millenia but especially the last few decades with a
very *liberal* view of what means information technology
(and networks in particular). Continuing his other
cautionary tales about the power of our "storytelling", I
feel like he lays the groundwork for the most likely way we
might recalibrate emotions to institutions to technology.
Our technology has been pulling hard against the drag of our
institutions which are faithfully trying to drag our
emotions (e.g. religious/political/cultural moral
frameworks) and the impedance mismatch seems to be the
source of most of our worst behaviours/outcomes?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The stories our modern MAGA/FauxRepublican/FauxConservative
political party in the US is telling is rooted deeply in the
emotional with only the barest nod to the institutional
(support LawNorder!!!!) and a jealous greedy eye for the
godlike tech (e.g. Trump cozying up to Musk/TechBros and
NFTs and Crypto as if he understands ANY of it?). <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The Progressive/Liberal "institutions" of the DNC seem to
be a little less regressive/reactionary but do in fact
suffer some of the same problems albeit not as acutely
superficially obvious. Without bashing the specifics of
what "the Dems" might be getting wrong, if we don't notice
the impedance mismach EO Wilson called out for us there, we
are destined to have raucous "ringing" in our systems? I
think the promise of a "Green New Deal" juxtaposed with some
of the biggest obvious fallacies and inadequacies are a good
example... by the time we actually settle on what a GND
might really look like the challenges and opportunities may
have moved on by a decade or more (is GND a whole decade old
as a term yet?) while MAGA keeps trying to claim "we believe
in clean air and water but sea level rise will be fractions
of an inch in centuries at worst and will yield more
beachfront property in any case"? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>How do we move our collective storytelling to be both
coherent and aligned with the physics/chemistry/bio/ecology
of Gaia quickly enough to quit driving the various
components past their limits (drill baby drill!)?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Maybe we cannot. Maybe we will have to crash and burn and
hope something can rise from the ashes (cockroaches and the
Rolling Stones? NeoLibertarian TechBros in their high-tech
Bitcoin Bunkers raising their own clones?)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Atlas Shrugs, Gaia Shrugs more Bigly.... (Rand, Margulis,
Dilbert, Trump references convolved?)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
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archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
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-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
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archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div><div>Clark University</div><div><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a></div><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a></div></div>