<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Eric,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Going all postmodern on you — there is no such thing as <b>Truth</b>, only <b>Somebody's Truth</b>.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">This is painfully evident at the moment in the fallacy of "fact checking," all the assertions of "misinformation," and "follow the science."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I do not see totalitarians of any stripe engaged in 'destroying' the truth; only in demanding that <b>Their Truth</b> is the one and only <b>Truth</b>.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">And, totalitarians are not the only ones engaged in this endeavor—everyone who has or wants to have power of whatever degree does the exact same thing.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Santafe wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> You know, I don’t mind the phrase “above the law”. It may not be <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> tailored to lower-level mechanistic arguing about one or another case, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> but it acknowledges a system context in which a society will operate <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> under some kind of hierarchy of prerogatives.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I don’t normally think about law in such hierarchies, and do more often <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> about truth. But I think similar arguments are appropriate for both, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> with certain modulations.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> What (re. power) do we want from truth in a society? We want truth to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> stand as a referee over all contesting claims. This is why <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> authoritarians, but even more totalitarians, have as a first-line <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> priority the killing of truth. Not just evading it or disregarding it, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> but publicly setting it on fire, to make the point that there will be <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> _no_ referee over the exercise of power by whoever happens to be <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> holding it. Arendt has some wonderful passages on the way the Nazi <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> movement was, from before its takeover through its ending, a project of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> substituting fictitious worlds for the real world in the lives of their <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> followers. This (now coming from me, not Arendt) is why the hopeful <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> totalitarian doesn’t tell borderline lies or ambiguous lies; he tells <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> extravagant, absurd lies, to make the point that any holdout hope for <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> truth will be ground up and blown away in the movements movement.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> The fragility of a role for truth in a society is that a commitment to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> it has to be a kind of escrow. The society has to grant truth <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> legitimacy and authority, and then the various members have to be <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> confined within that commitment when their own interests would motivate <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> them to escape it. Ulysses at the mast, or something like that. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Rawls’s veil of ignorance.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> The question of what law is, and who it is answerable to, is different <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> because it is entirely conventional, unlike truth which has a very <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> individually-judgeable aspect. But will the society’s legitimated <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> notion of “law” be a tool for use by a king? By specifically the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> God-Emporer (Mao or, increasingly, Xi) or Louix IV or Napoleon? Will <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> it be a tool for use by the holder of an office (Putin? Trump “if <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> you’re the president they (SCOTUS) let you do it”)? Or is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> law-the-system claimed or intended to have prerogatives above those of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> specific persons, or of offices w.r.t. their occupants, and if so, in <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> what is that prerogative vested? The charateristically vague notion of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> a “democracy” supposes that there should be some abstract entity — the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> “demos” — in which the prerogative of law is vested. But since <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> abstract entities don’t operate in the material world, what we have is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> some edifice of institutions etc. that is meant to suitably instantiate <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> a “demos”. We can complain about all the ways an actual, realized <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> system fails to instantiate a demos well, or is aimed at a wrong <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> concept of one. But that complaint is different from the distinction <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> that, as the Maoist government promulgated him as increasingly <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> semi-divine, there was no concept of a “demos” at all that had <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> prerogatives above him. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I think we lose that relevant notion of hierarchy of prerogatives if we <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> abandon the “above” in “above the law”.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Lot of hair-splitting for no substance; I know…<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Eric<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:22, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> I agree. We're dancing around the meaning of "above the law" and it's a terrible phrase. But people use it. So you have to have some way to parse it (again, based on the *rest* of whatever it is someone says). Hardline positions like what Jochen and Dave are taking can help develop such parsing strats, at least they help me.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On a similar note, this article was very interesting to me because of both my long-term interest in "mindreading" (which I'll now call "mentalizing", I guess) and my more recent interest in replacing things like ontologies with LLMs:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Defining key concepts for mental state attribution<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6">https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> On 10/15/24 09:11, steve smith wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> I hope I'm not (just) muddying the water here, but I think "buffered from the remedies of law" might be better than "above the law"? I think it applies not to just the wealthy and powerful but to other ideosyncratic reasons like obscurity, anonymity, unpredictable-behaviour, etc...<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>> On 10/15/24 9:00 AM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> Well, OK. I agree with the gist. But rather than target Congress, the Admin, and bureaucrats, I'd target wealthy people, whatever their day job might be. There are people mostly above the law. Musk is one of them. But more importantly, there's a couple of handfuls of companies that own the world: Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, Bain, etc. To boot, those companies "are people", are effectively immortal, and can't seriously be punished for any crime they might commit.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> And this point is definitely a systemic one. Even if every single member of the entire government were biased against those who wield this power, the system has too many weak points to hold them accountable. When faced with a super villain like Musk, it takes a champion (at least one, but more often a team) to counter-game the system (e.g. Whitehouse, Warren, Wyden, etc.). And the champions usually eventually succumb to biology or corruption.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>> On 10/14/24 15:52, Prof David West wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> True, citing exceptions to specific laws does not indict the */system/*: /"We mean the entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise."/<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> However, the way the phrase,/"no one is above the law,"/ is popularly used, especially now and in the political context, it is not a systemic assertion, but a personal one: hold X accountable because no one is above the specific law that X ostensibly violated. _I will accept chastisement for being equally sloppy in usage_.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> Also, I would argue that the system has been corrupted to such a point that a whole class of people in particular roles are above the law systemically:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> - Congress abdicated its responsibility to enact laws, ceding it to bureaucrats.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> - Those same bureaucrats usurp the role of the judiciary by indicting and trying those who violate their laws (and they are laws, including criminal felony laws), crafting their own rules of evidence and procedure, and determining guilt or innocence with no recourse to the 'Systems' judiciary.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> - If you include the explosion in use of 'executive decree'; you might argue that a substantial part of the executive branch of government in the U.S. is 'above the law'.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 12:15 PM, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ. But your refutation is<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By "the rule of law", we<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like a city statute<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > against walking your alligator down the street or whatever. We mean the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise. Of course,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > particular slices of the population are exempt from some particular<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > law. E.g. London cabbies used to be allowed to urinate wherever without<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > regard to the typical laws governing such. That doesn't imply that<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > London cabbies are "above the law". I suppose you could say they're<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > above that particular set of laws. But "exempt" isn't synonymous with<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > "above", anyway.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > I don't think the SCOTUS ruling on immunity claims the President is<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > above the law, contrary to the implications of the left's rhetoric,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws when executing the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in the way the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > rhetoric implies.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> > On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >> Sorry Russ, but /"Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society,"/ is an absurd idea.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >> Assuming the US is a democratic society (in some sense), I would defy you to find any existing law that does not have exceptions that place someone, in some role or in some cirsumstance, "above" that law.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >> davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *From:* Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>> on behalf of Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>; <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the opponent and what they represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological phenomenon they are a part of.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *From:*Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *To:* <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> A president who murders his opponents would not be better than an evil dictator in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> But you are right, this possibility exists after the recent decision of the supreme court. It seems to be a result of democratic backsliding. Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> -J.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> -------- Original message --------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> From: Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> -- Russ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >>> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1</a>>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1</a>>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>>>>> >>> >>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></body></html>