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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><a href="https://xkcd.com/54/">https://xkcd.com/54/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 16, 2024 9:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I do not believe there is anything in postmodernism that argues for an infinity of truths or denial of a definition for truth. Indeed, I believe it is pretty much exactly what glen asserts,<i> "Truth(s) can be something like moments or high order stabilities that allow us to settle contested claims, even if only temporarily."</i><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>However, such truths are still "owned" and promulgated by some consensual group, at some specific time, and in some specific context.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>This is true even of "close to the metal brute facts." Dr Johnson's stubbed toe was an eloquent assertion of a truth, at that time. Bishop Berkeley's truth is a lot closer to current quantum physic truths, today.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Although the group 'owning' truths about the established hard sciences and mathematics might be very expansive, even that is not universal (e.g., psycho-nauts and Zen-ists).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In 'new' sciences (e.g., psychology) there are almost certainly >2 up to 7 +/- 2, different contending truth groups.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In the realm of culture-through-politics, I am pretty sure the postmodernists have it right. Truth, in that context, is little more than a cudgel to be used to flatten those that disagree.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>On Wed, Oct 16, 2024, at 9:26 AM, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> I think I agree with Jon, here. But I'd word it (very) differently. And <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> although Marcus' response is in Eric's vein, it only targets "close to <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> the metal"/brute facts, not derived facts (with variation on both <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> "facts"/primitives and "derivations"/logics).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> While I'm an avowed pluralist, my commitment isn't to an infinity of <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> truths or, worse, the undefinedness of truth. Maybe there are trillions <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> of truths (allowing for each biological organism to have "their truth", <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> uniquely). But to go so far as to suggest there are infinite truths or <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> that truth is undefined is a bridge too far. That would be like arguing <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> there are no such things as parallel lines in any spatial system, no <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> agreement to be had no matter what the context.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> My confidence in a plurality is bounded to a few, I think, N≥3 or so, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> but maybe something closer to "N=7±2", reflecting something like the <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> affordance of sensemaking minds. And to be clear, that small set of N <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> truths can wander in some kind of Peircian sense, I guess, except <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> without assuming it'll monotonically converge to a static/permanent set <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> of N fixed member truths.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> In this wandering space of paraconsistent logics, we may still follow <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> the framework Eric sets out. Truth(s) can be something like moments or <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> high order stabilities that allow us to settle contested claims, even <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> if only temporarily. But here I see more of a tie between truth and law <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> ... maybe, deep down, my antipathy toward evolutionary psychology is <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> simply that the discipline is too young? Social convention comes from <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> somewhere ... somewhere bound to reality, even if the binding is <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> through a wobbly causal network with randomness at every node. Can <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> convention be completely unbound to truth? That seems like an extreme <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> claim to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> On 10/15/24 12:28, Jon Zingale wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>> FWIW, I think Eric is correct to highlight the relationship between being *increasingly promulgated to the semi-divine stature* and the disappearance of *demos*. However, I am resistant to a characterization that renders demos as *abstract* rather than *virtual*. I am resistant to the idea that demoi are implemented rather than immanent. While there may come a day where master-slave relations become complete and fully actualized and demos (relegated to the abstract) is solely manifested via deputization, I maintain a level of wishful-hoping that for as long as we engage one another, demos de facto exists and immanently so.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>> This subtlety, for me, parallels on the one hand, the ontological status of infinitesimals in founding the differential calculus, and on the other, discussions I am having with Nick around the nature of *facts*. To my mind, disinformation isn't simply the overturning of truth values intension with a concept. Rather, disinformation campaigns (like other forms of fascism) aim to atomize networks of relations. Atomization can happen at various levels, sometimes at the level of the ideas and at other times at the level of repositories. Demos, like concept, is inherently non-discrete even if only nilpotent. In the end, I suppose both that the denial of demos is expensive and that collective perceptions can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>> On 10/15/24 12:14, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>> Jump out of your car when driving on the freeway or inject bleach to kill the COVID, and enjoy Your Truth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>> On 10/15/24 11:02, Prof David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> Eric,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> Going all postmodern on you — there is no such thing as *Truth*, only *Somebody's Truth*.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> This is painfully evident at the moment in the fallacy of "fact checking," all the assertions of "misinformation," and "follow the science."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> I do not see totalitarians of any stripe engaged in 'destroying' the truth; only in demanding that *Their Truth* is the one and only *Truth*.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> And, totalitarians are not the only ones engaged in this endeavor—everyone who has or wants to have power of whatever degree does the exact same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Santafe wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > You know, I don’t mind the phrase “above the law”. It may not be<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > tailored to lower-level mechanistic arguing about one or another case,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > but it acknowledges a system context in which a society will operate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > under some kind of hierarchy of prerogatives.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > I don’t normally think about law in such hierarchies, and do more often<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > about truth. But I think similar arguments are appropriate for both,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > with certain modulations.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > What (re. power) do we want from truth in a society? We want truth to<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > stand as a referee over all contesting claims. This is why<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > authoritarians, but even more totalitarians, have as a first-line<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > priority the killing of truth. Not just evading it or disregarding it,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > but publicly setting it on fire, to make the point that there will be<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > _no_ referee over the exercise of power by whoever happens to be<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > holding it. Arendt has some wonderful passages on the way the Nazi<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > movement was, from before its takeover through its ending, a project of<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > substituting fictitious worlds for the real world in the lives of their<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > followers. This (now coming from me, not Arendt) is why the hopeful<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > totalitarian doesn’t tell borderline lies or ambiguous lies; he tells<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > extravagant, absurd lies, to make the point that any holdout hope for<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > truth will be ground up and blown away in the movements movement.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > The fragility of a role for truth in a society is that a commitment to<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > it has to be a kind of escrow. The society has to grant truth<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > legitimacy and authority, and then the various members have to be<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > confined within that commitment when their own interests would motivate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > them to escape it. Ulysses at the mast, or something like that.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > Rawls’s veil of ignorance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > The question of what law is, and who it is answerable to, is different<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > because it is entirely conventional, unlike truth which has a very<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > individually-judgeable aspect. But will the society’s legitimated<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > notion of “law” be a tool for use by a king? By specifically the<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > God-Emporer (Mao or, increasingly, Xi) or Louix IV or Napoleon? Will<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > it be a tool for use by the holder of an office (Putin? Trump “if<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > you’re the president they (SCOTUS) let you do it”)? Or is<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > law-the-system claimed or intended to have prerogatives above those of<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > specific persons, or of offices w.r.t. their occupants, and if so, in<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > what is that prerogative vested? The charateristically vague notion of<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > a “democracy” supposes that there should be some abstract entity — the<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > “demos” — in which the prerogative of law is vested. But since<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > abstract entities don’t operate in the material world, what we have is<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > some edifice of institutions etc. that is meant to suitably instantiate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > a “demos”. We can complain about all the ways an actual, realized<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > system fails to instantiate a demos well, or is aimed at a wrong<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > concept of one. But that complaint is different from the distinction<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > that, as the Maoist government promulgated him as increasingly<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > semi-divine, there was no concept of a “demos” at all that had<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > prerogatives above him.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > I think we lose that relevant notion of hierarchy of prerogatives if we<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > abandon the “above” in “above the law”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > Lot of hair-splitting for no substance; I know…<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> > Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:22, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> I agree. We're dancing around the meaning of "above the law" and it's a terrible phrase. But people use it. So you have to have some way to parse it (again, based on the *rest* of whatever it is someone says). Hardline positions like what Jochen and Dave are taking can help develop such parsing strats, at least they help me.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> On a similar note, this article was very interesting to me because of both my long-term interest in "mindreading" (which I'll now call "mentalizing", I guess) and my more recent interest in replacing things like ontologies with LLMs:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> Defining key concepts for mental state attribution<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6">https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6</a> <<a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6">https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >> On 10/15/24 09:11, steve smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>> I hope I'm not (just) muddying the water here, but I think "buffered from the remedies of law" might be better than "above the law"? I think it applies not to just the wealthy and powerful but to other ideosyncratic reasons like obscurity, anonymity, unpredictable-behaviour, etc...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>> On 10/15/24 9:00 AM, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>> Well, OK. I agree with the gist. But rather than target Congress, the Admin, and bureaucrats, I'd target wealthy people, whatever their day job might be. There are people mostly above the law. Musk is one of them. But more importantly, there's a couple of handfuls of companies that own the world: Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, Bain, etc. To boot, those companies "are people", are effectively immortal, and can't seriously be punished for any crime they might commit.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>> And this point is definitely a systemic one. Even if every single member of the entire government were biased against those who wield this power, the system has too many weak points to hold them accountable. When faced with a super villain like Musk, it takes a champion (at least one, but more often a team) to counter-game the system (e.g. Whitehouse, Warren, Wyden, etc.). And the champions usually eventually succumb to biology or corruption.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>> On 10/14/24 15:52, Prof David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> True, citing exceptions to specific laws does not indict the */system/*: /"We mean the entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise."/<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> However, the way the phrase,/"no one is above the law,"/ is popularly used, especially now and in the political context, it is not a systemic assertion, but a personal one: hold X accountable because no one is above the specific law that X ostensibly violated. _I will accept chastisement for being equally sloppy in usage_.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> Also, I would argue that the system has been corrupted to such a point that a whole class of people in particular roles are above the law systemically:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> - Congress abdicated its responsibility to enact laws, ceding it to bureaucrats.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> - Those same bureaucrats usurp the role of the judiciary by indicting and trying those who violate their laws (and they are laws, including criminal felony laws), crafting their own rules of evidence and procedure, and determining guilt or innocence with no recourse to the 'Systems' judiciary.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> - If you include the explosion in use of 'executive decree'; you might argue that a substantial part of the executive branch of government in the U.S. is 'above the law'.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 12:15 PM, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ. But your refutation is<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By "the rule of law", we<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like a city statute<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > against walking your alligator down the street or whatever. We mean the<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise. Of course,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > particular slices of the population are exempt from some particular<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > law. E.g. London cabbies used to be allowed to urinate wherever without<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > regard to the typical laws governing such. That doesn't imply that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > London cabbies are "above the law". I suppose you could say they're<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > above that particular set of laws. But "exempt" isn't synonymous with<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > "above", anyway.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > I don't think the SCOTUS ruling on immunity claims the President is<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > above the law, contrary to the implications of the left's rhetoric,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws when executing the<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in the way the<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > rhetoric implies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> ><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> > On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >> Sorry Russ, but /"Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society,"/ is an absurd idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >> Assuming the US is a democratic society (in some sense), I would defy you to find any existing law that does not have exceptions that place someone, in some role or in some cirsumstance, "above" that law.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >> davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *From:* Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>> on behalf of Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>>; <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>> <<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the opponent and what they represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological phenomenon they are a part of.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *From:*Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *To:* <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> A president who murders his opponents would not be better than an evil dictator in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> But you are right, this possibility exists after the recent decision of the supreme court. It seems to be a result of democratic backsliding. Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> -J.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> -------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> From: Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> -- Russ<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1</a>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1</a>>>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1</a>>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1</a>>>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> -- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ꙮ</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ꙮ</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> archives: 5/2017 thru present <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>