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<p>My Phil 101 professor asserted that there were only two types of
statements: "Facts about the world" and "Relations between
ideas". it was a useful dichotomy for the discussions that
followed in that and other classes he taught and I participated
in. It seems overly simplistic and under-nuanced sometimes but
not a bad rough first cut.</p>
<p>I think that when Kellyanne declared "alternative facts" she was
(vaguely honestly) referencing the latter with no legitimate
relevance to the former... I doubt, given her placement in society
(and many of us) she does not spend much if any time actually
attempting to measure (or even observe qualitatively) anything
fundamentally to be a fact about the physical universe. She
lives (even more than most of us) in the "intersubjective reality"
where to some extent most of what she would be interested in an
care about are "the things we can agree upon" where ("we" is the
subset of people, 1 or more, we are negotiating to live
amongst/with effectively).</p>
<p>The polyping off of various sub-universes as experienced by
politics and factionating includes (mostly tiny if not
infinitesmal) folks who would actually inject bleach in their
veins or jump out of a car at high speeds for reasons only they
(and their cult members) can articulate (if not actually
understand).</p>
<p>The left has their own polyped universes where if (to use an
anti-left/anti-woke trope) Anthony Fauci says something that could
be implied to be an informed professional opinion, they would
prostate themselves at his feet an then do something absurd
(equally to injecting bleach) "because he/science said so" when in
fact he very likely didn't actually prescribe that act, nor did he
actually invoke his presumed authority in the domain of
science. "Identity Politics" or more wide "wokeism" would be
that (especially to the anti-woke) as well, more generally and
while *I* find that reaction (mostly) wrong-headed, it isn't
entirely wrong to read it that way?</p>
<p>- steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/24 9:27 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:bff5b762-959e-444a-8836-64b407c8dbc3@app.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Pithy: channeling Dr. Johnson
vis-a-vis Bishop Berkeley.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="overflow-wrap:break-word;">
<div class="qt-WordSection1">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;">Jump out of your car when driving
on the freeway or inject bleach to kill the COVID, and
enjoy Your Truth.</span><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">From:</span></span></b><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif;"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: tolerance of
intolerance</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Eric,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Going
all postmodern on you — there is no such thing as <b>Truth</b>,
only <b>Somebody's Truth</b>.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">This
is painfully evident at the moment in the fallacy of
"fact checking," all the assertions of "misinformation,"
and "follow the science."</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I do
not see totalitarians of any stripe engaged in
'destroying' the truth; only in demanding that <b>Their
Truth</b> is the one and only <b>Truth</b>.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">And,
totalitarians are not the only ones engaged in this
endeavor—everyone who has or wants to have power of
whatever degree does the exact same thing.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">On
Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Santafe wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
You know, I don’t mind the phrase “above the law”. It
may not be </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
tailored to lower-level mechanistic arguing about one or
another case, </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
but it acknowledges a system context in which a society
will operate </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
under some kind of hierarchy of prerogatives.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
I don’t normally think about law in such hierarchies,
and do more often </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
about truth. But I think similar arguments are
appropriate for both, </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
with certain modulations.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
What (re. power) do we want from truth in a society?
We want truth to </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
stand as a referee over all contesting claims. This is
why </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
authoritarians, but even more totalitarians, have as a
first-line </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
priority the killing of truth. Not just evading it or
disregarding it, </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
but publicly setting it on fire, to make the point that
there will be </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
_no_ referee over the exercise of power by whoever
happens to be </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
holding it. Arendt has some wonderful passages on the
way the Nazi </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
movement was, from before its takeover through its
ending, a project of </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
substituting fictitious worlds for the real world in the
lives of their </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
followers. This (now coming from me, not Arendt) is why
the hopeful </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
totalitarian doesn’t tell borderline lies or ambiguous
lies; he tells </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
extravagant, absurd lies, to make the point that any
holdout hope for </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
truth will be ground up and blown away in the movements
movement.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
The fragility of a role for truth in a society is that a
commitment to </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
it has to be a kind of escrow. The society has to grant
truth </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
legitimacy and authority, and then the various members
have to be </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
confined within that commitment when their own interests
would motivate </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
them to escape it. Ulysses at the mast, or something
like that. </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Rawls’s veil of ignorance.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
The question of what law is, and who it is answerable
to, is different </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
because it is entirely conventional, unlike truth which
has a very </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
individually-judgeable aspect. But will the society’s
legitimated </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
notion of “law” be a tool for use by a king? By
specifically the </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
God-Emporer (Mao or, increasingly, Xi) or Louix IV or
Napoleon? Will </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
it be a tool for use by the holder of an office (Putin?
Trump “if </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
you’re the president they (SCOTUS) let you do it”)? Or
is </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
law-the-system claimed or intended to have prerogatives
above those of </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
specific persons, or of offices w.r.t. their occupants,
and if so, in </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
what is that prerogative vested? The charateristically
vague notion of </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
a “democracy” supposes that there should be some
abstract entity — the </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
“demos” — in which the prerogative of law is vested.
But since </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
abstract entities don’t operate in the material world,
what we have is </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
some edifice of institutions etc. that is meant to
suitably instantiate </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
a “demos”. We can complain about all the ways an
actual, realized </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
system fails to instantiate a demos well, or is aimed at
a wrong </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
concept of one. But that complaint is different from
the distinction </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
that, as the Maoist government promulgated him as
increasingly </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
semi-divine, there was no concept of a “demos” at all
that had </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
prerogatives above him. </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
I think we lose that relevant notion of hierarchy of
prerogatives if we </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
abandon the “above” in “above the law”.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Lot of hair-splitting for no substance; I know…</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Eric</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:22, glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
I agree. We're dancing around the meaning of "above the
law" and it's a terrible phrase. But people use it. So
you have to have some way to parse it (again, based on
the *rest* of whatever it is someone says). Hardline
positions like what Jochen and Dave are taking can help
develop such parsing strats, at least they help me.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
On a similar note, this article was very interesting to
me because of both my long-term interest in
"mindreading" (which I'll now call "mentalizing", I
guess) and my more recent interest in replacing things
like ontologies with LLMs:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
Defining key concepts for mental state attribution</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> <a
href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
On 10/15/24 09:11, steve smith wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
I hope I'm not (just) muddying the water here, but I
think "buffered from the remedies of law" might be
better than "above the law"? I think it applies not to
just the wealthy and powerful but to other ideosyncratic
reasons like obscurity, anonymity,
unpredictable-behaviour, etc...</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>
On 10/15/24 9:00 AM, glen wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
Well, OK. I agree with the gist. But rather than target
Congress, the Admin, and bureaucrats, I'd target wealthy
people, whatever their day job might be. There are
people mostly above the law. Musk is one of them. But
more importantly, there's a couple of handfuls of
companies that own the world: Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle,
Bain, etc. To boot, those companies "are people", are
effectively immortal, and can't seriously be punished
for any crime they might commit.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
And this point is definitely a systemic one. Even if
every single member of the entire government were biased
against those who wield this power, the system has too
many weak points to hold them accountable. When faced
with a super villain like Musk, it takes a champion (at
least one, but more often a team) to counter-game the
system (e.g. Whitehouse, Warren, Wyden, etc.). And the
champions usually eventually succumb to biology or
corruption.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>
On 10/14/24 15:52, Prof David West wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
True, citing exceptions to specific laws does not indict
the */system/*: /"We mean the entire legislative,
executive, and judicial enterprise."/</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
However, the way the phrase,/"no one is above the law,"/
is popularly used, especially now and in the political
context, it is not a systemic assertion, but a personal
one: hold X accountable because no one is above the
specific law that X ostensibly violated. _I will accept
chastisement for being equally sloppy in usage_.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
Also, I would argue that the system has been corrupted
to such a point that a whole class of people in
particular roles are above the law systemically:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
- Congress abdicated its responsibility to enact laws,
ceding it to bureaucrats.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
- Those same bureaucrats usurp the role of the judiciary
by indicting and trying those who violate their laws
(and they are laws, including criminal felony laws),
crafting their own rules of evidence and procedure, and
determining guilt or innocence with no recourse to the
'Systems' judiciary.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
- If you include the explosion in use of 'executive
decree'; you might argue that a substantial part of the
executive branch of government in the U.S. is 'above the
law'.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
davew</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 12:15 PM, glen wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ. But
your refutation is</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By
"the rule of law", we</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like
a city statute</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> against walking your alligator down the street or
whatever. We mean the</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> entire legislative, executive, and judicial
enterprise. Of course,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> particular slices of the population are exempt from
some particular</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> law. E.g. London cabbies used to be allowed to
urinate wherever without</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> regard to the typical laws governing such. That
doesn't imply that</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> London cabbies are "above the law". I suppose you
could say they're</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> above that particular set of laws. But "exempt"
isn't synonymous with</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> "above", anyway.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> I don't think the SCOTUS ruling on immunity claims
the President is</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> above the law, contrary to the implications of the
left's rhetoric,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws
when executing the</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in
the way the</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> rhetoric implies.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
> On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>> Sorry Russ, but /"Nobody should be above the
law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic
society,"/ is an absurd idea.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>> Assuming the US is a democratic society (in
some sense), I would defy you to find any existing law
that does not have exceptions that place someone, in
some role or in some cirsumstance, "above" that law.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>> davew</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison
wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
on behalf of Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>>; <a
href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>
<<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of
intolerance</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on
the opponent and what they represent both in terms of
ideology and the sociological phenomenon they are a part
of.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *From:*Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
*On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *To:* <a
href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>;
The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of
intolerance</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> A president who murders his opponents would
not be better than an evil dictator in an authoritarian
state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and
Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> But you are right, this possibility exists
after the recent decision of the supreme court. It seems
to be a result of democratic backsliding. Nobody should
be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a
democratic society.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> -J.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> From: Russ Abbott <<a
href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00)</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of
intolerance</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility
that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his
newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> -- Russ</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>>
wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want
it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come
up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20
year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope
for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the
nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration
announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur
surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns
furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden
recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed).
Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing
like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's
condition worsens. First Female President. Biden
recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> > I wonder what Scott's response
would have been to those of us who, in response to the
shooting, thought: better luck next time.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels
wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >> It ignores the option of doing
things quietly and indirectly.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >>> <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1</a>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1</a>>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1</a>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1</a>>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >>> I'm currently surrounded
by people who believe intolerance is properly not
tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary
Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism
displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1"
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<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1</a>>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1</a>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1</a>>>).
This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win
out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a
thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the
iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style
strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing
my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>>
>>> >>></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
-- </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
</span><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;">ꙮ</span><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ </span><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif;">ꙮ</span><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1"
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</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
to (un)subscribe <a
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moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1</a></span><br>
</p>
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<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1"
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</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
to (un)subscribe <a
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</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
archives: 5/2017 thru present </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
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<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
</div>
<div>to (un)subscribe <a
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moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
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<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
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moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Attachments:</b><br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>smime.p7s<br>
</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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