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p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Pithy: channeling Dr. Johnson vis-a-vis Bishop Berkeley.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="overflow-wrap:break-word;"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Jump out of your car when driving on the freeway or inject bleach to kill the COVID, and enjoy Your Truth.</span><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><br></p><div><div style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">From:</span></span></b><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: tolerance of intolerance</span></span></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Eric,</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Going all postmodern on you — there is no such thing as <b>Truth</b>, only <b>Somebody's Truth</b>.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">This is painfully evident at the moment in the fallacy of "fact checking," all the assertions of "misinformation," and "follow the science."</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I do not see totalitarians of any stripe engaged in 'destroying' the truth; only in demanding that <b>Their Truth</b> is the one and only <b>Truth</b>.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">And, totalitarians are not the only ones engaged in this endeavor—everyone who has or wants to have power of whatever degree does the exact same thing.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Santafe wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> You know, I don’t mind the phrase “above the law”. It may not be </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> tailored to lower-level mechanistic arguing about one or another case, </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> but it acknowledges a system context in which a society will operate </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> under some kind of hierarchy of prerogatives.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> I don’t normally think about law in such hierarchies, and do more often </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> about truth. But I think similar arguments are appropriate for both, </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> with certain modulations.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> What (re. power) do we want from truth in a society? We want truth to </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> stand as a referee over all contesting claims. This is why </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> authoritarians, but even more totalitarians, have as a first-line </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> priority the killing of truth. Not just evading it or disregarding it, </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> but publicly setting it on fire, to make the point that there will be </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> _no_ referee over the exercise of power by whoever happens to be </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> holding it. Arendt has some wonderful passages on the way the Nazi </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> movement was, from before its takeover through its ending, a project of </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> substituting fictitious worlds for the real world in the lives of their </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> followers. This (now coming from me, not Arendt) is why the hopeful </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> totalitarian doesn’t tell borderline lies or ambiguous lies; he tells </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> extravagant, absurd lies, to make the point that any holdout hope for </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> truth will be ground up and blown away in the movements movement.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> The fragility of a role for truth in a society is that a commitment to </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> it has to be a kind of escrow. The society has to grant truth </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> legitimacy and authority, and then the various members have to be </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> confined within that commitment when their own interests would motivate </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> them to escape it. Ulysses at the mast, or something like that. </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Rawls’s veil of ignorance.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> The question of what law is, and who it is answerable to, is different </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> because it is entirely conventional, unlike truth which has a very </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> individually-judgeable aspect. But will the society’s legitimated </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> notion of “law” be a tool for use by a king? By specifically the </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> God-Emporer (Mao or, increasingly, Xi) or Louix IV or Napoleon? Will </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> it be a tool for use by the holder of an office (Putin? Trump “if </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> you’re the president they (SCOTUS) let you do it”)? Or is </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> law-the-system claimed or intended to have prerogatives above those of </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> specific persons, or of offices w.r.t. their occupants, and if so, in </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> what is that prerogative vested? The charateristically vague notion of </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> a “democracy” supposes that there should be some abstract entity — the </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> “demos” — in which the prerogative of law is vested. But since </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> abstract entities don’t operate in the material world, what we have is </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> some edifice of institutions etc. that is meant to suitably instantiate </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> a “demos”. We can complain about all the ways an actual, realized </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> system fails to instantiate a demos well, or is aimed at a wrong </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> concept of one. But that complaint is different from the distinction </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> that, as the Maoist government promulgated him as increasingly </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> semi-divine, there was no concept of a “demos” at all that had </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> prerogatives above him. </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> I think we lose that relevant notion of hierarchy of prerogatives if we </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> abandon the “above” in “above the law”.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Lot of hair-splitting for no substance; I know…</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Eric</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:22, glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> I agree. We're dancing around the meaning of "above the law" and it's a terrible phrase. But people use it. So you have to have some way to parse it (again, based on the *rest* of whatever it is someone says). Hardline positions like what Jochen and Dave are taking can help develop such parsing strats, at least they help me.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> On a similar note, this article was very interesting to me because of both my long-term interest in "mindreading" (which I'll now call "mentalizing", I guess) and my more recent interest in replacing things like ontologies with LLMs:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> Defining key concepts for mental state attribution</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6">https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> On 10/15/24 09:11, steve smith wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> I hope I'm not (just) muddying the water here, but I think "buffered from the remedies of law" might be better than "above the law"? I think it applies not to just the wealthy and powerful but to other ideosyncratic reasons like obscurity, anonymity, unpredictable-behaviour, etc...</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>> On 10/15/24 9:00 AM, glen wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> Well, OK. I agree with the gist. But rather than target Congress, the Admin, and bureaucrats, I'd target wealthy people, whatever their day job might be. There are people mostly above the law. Musk is one of them. But more importantly, there's a couple of handfuls of companies that own the world: Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, Bain, etc. To boot, those companies "are people", are effectively immortal, and can't seriously be punished for any crime they might commit.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> And this point is definitely a systemic one. Even if every single member of the entire government were biased against those who wield this power, the system has too many weak points to hold them accountable. When faced with a super villain like Musk, it takes a champion (at least one, but more often a team) to counter-game the system (e.g. Whitehouse, Warren, Wyden, etc.). And the champions usually eventually succumb to biology or corruption.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>> On 10/14/24 15:52, Prof David West wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> True, citing exceptions to specific laws does not indict the */system/*: /"We mean the entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise."/</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> However, the way the phrase,/"no one is above the law,"/ is popularly used, especially now and in the political context, it is not a systemic assertion, but a personal one: hold X accountable because no one is above the specific law that X ostensibly violated. _I will accept chastisement for being equally sloppy in usage_.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> Also, I would argue that the system has been corrupted to such a point that a whole class of people in particular roles are above the law systemically:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> - Congress abdicated its responsibility to enact laws, ceding it to bureaucrats.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> - Those same bureaucrats usurp the role of the judiciary by indicting and trying those who violate their laws (and they are laws, including criminal felony laws), crafting their own rules of evidence and procedure, and determining guilt or innocence with no recourse to the 'Systems' judiciary.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> - If you include the explosion in use of 'executive decree'; you might argue that a substantial part of the executive branch of government in the U.S. is 'above the law'.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> davew</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 12:15 PM, glen wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ. But your refutation is</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By "the rule of law", we</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like a city statute</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > against walking your alligator down the street or whatever. We mean the</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise. Of course,</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > particular slices of the population are exempt from some particular</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > law. E.g. London cabbies used to be allowed to urinate wherever without</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > regard to the typical laws governing such. That doesn't imply that</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > London cabbies are "above the law". I suppose you could say they're</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > above that particular set of laws. But "exempt" isn't synonymous with</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > "above", anyway.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> ></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > I don't think the SCOTUS ruling on immunity claims the President is</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > above the law, contrary to the implications of the left's rhetoric,</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws when executing the</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in the way the</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > rhetoric implies.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> ></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> > On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >> Sorry Russ, but /"Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society,"/ is an absurd idea.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >> Assuming the US is a democratic society (in some sense), I would defy you to find any existing law that does not have exceptions that place someone, in some role or in some cirsumstance, "above" that law.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >> davew</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *From:* Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>> on behalf of Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>; <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the opponent and what they represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological phenomenon they are a part of.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *From:*Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *To:* <a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Russ.Abbott@gmail.com">Russ.Abbott@gmail.com</a>>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> A president who murders his opponents would not be better than an evil dictator in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> But you are right, this possibility exists after the recent decision of the supreme court. It seems to be a result of democratic backsliding. Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> -J.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> -------- Original message --------</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> From: Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00)</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> -- Russ</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >>> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1</a>>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1</a>> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1</a> <<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1</a>>>). This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>>>>> >>> >>></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> -- </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> </span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;">ꙮ</span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ </span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;">ꙮ</span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> -. --- - 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