<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Jochen Fromm sed:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202410311754.49VHsK2K055090@ame1.swcp.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
No, he is not a skilled negotiator at all. </blockquote>
<p>Some people mistake (conflate?) bullying for "negotiating". <br>
</p>
<p> Musk is also a bully and I doubt anyone who has done business or
tried to maintain personal relationships with him (e.g. his
children and their mothers, etc) will not disagree. Trump's whole
cohort/contingent are bullies of various stripes (Stone and Bannon
and Miller, Graham, Jordan, MTG) as well. Effective bullies know
how to defer to bigger bullies, to deal efficiently with anyone
willing/able to stand up to them. They might do their smackdown
alone if their victim is weak, but easily gang up with others to
smack down stronger ones. Putin is clearly a bully's bully and
Trumps other hero/buddies come in on the same ticket. I don't
understand Xi or Modhi, since Trump doesn't gush over them like he
does Putin and Orban and Kim Jong Un. <br>
</p>
<p>The (informal) expansion of BRICS to include a bit of the Middle
East may suggest more global stability that comes with dynamic
balances (1 superpower/coalition is either 1 too many or several
too few?).</p>
<p>There is the argument "yes, he's a bully/@$$H*L3 but he's OUR
bully/A********) but that is perhaps the lamest argument ever?
I've made that mistake myself before and I am totally over it.<br>
</p>
<p>Re: the "great removal"... while the Nazi anti-Semite
movement/action/horror is not an entirely wrong comparison, but we
here have several major poorly thought-out but harsh purges in the
recent history of the US. The Japanese-American Internment
(there was a camp in Santa Fe where Solano Center is now) in the
40s, and the depression era of "Mexican Repatriation" which was
somewhat indiscriminate about whether those "repatriated" were US
Citizens (many were), or had family/roots in Mexico (many did not)
or even spoke Spanish (many did not). I believe most of this was
in southern CA, as an imagined way to reduce the stress on the job
market and on goods, but like the Japanese Internment it was at
root driven by racism, xenophobia and greed. Many merchant class
families from both groups had their businesses taken over or
bought out for pennies on the dollar by their former
friends/neighbors quite eagerly. All you had to do was have the
wrong surname and/or complexion and not enough resources to
resist. <br>
</p>
<p>Trump's "one day, one hour of extreme violence" and "I'll only be
a dictator on day one" smack way too much of Krystalnacht for my
taste...<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202410311754.49VHsK2K055090@ame1.swcp.com">This is a
myth, isn't it? He has no patience for long and complicated
negotiations. He basically acts like a bully who demands loyalty,
as James Comey reported. He is only good at lying and cheating and
hiding that he cheated (which is the reason why he was convicted).
Even the MAGA motto is a lie: instead of making America great he
will ruin it. Like Captain Ahab in Moby Dick he will ruin
everything on his quest for personal revenge.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">For example if he expels the Mexican immigrants,
nobody will clean the houses of the superrich anymore. Or wash
the dishes in hotels and restaurants. This dirty work is
typically done by immigrants and people of color, all over the
world. <br>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-J.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Pieter Steenekamp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za"><pieters@randcontrols.co.za></a>
</div>
<div>Date: 10/31/24 3:39 PM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What if Trump Wins? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">The Case for Trump<br>
<br>
I'm not suggesting that Trump is a model leader; he has many
moral shortcomings. And yes, if we view the U.S. President as
the de facto leader of the West, it's fair to ask: Can’t we do
better? I also won’t debate whether someone like Harris might
make a better president. My point is this: If Trump is elected,
might there be areas where his unique style could actually make
him an effective leader?<br>
<br>
One thing Trump can do is negotiate. As a potential leader of
the West, there are benefits he could bring in negotiating with
adversaries, including BRICS countries. Let me explain using an
analogy: the character James Dean played in Rebel Without a
Cause. In a game of chicken, Dean's character pretended to be
drunk, making his opponent believe he was reckless—eventually
causing them to back down.<br>
<br>
Trump has a history of employing similar tactics. For instance,
when building in New York, he once proposed a design that
violated height limits. When this was denied, he proposed a much
uglier building that followed the code. Ultimately, he got
approval to build his original design, with the height exemption
he wanted. Whether or not he would have gone through with his
threat is unclear, but he got what he wanted by throwing a
calculated tantrum.<br>
<br>
In the same way, Trump's current claims about what he would do
internationally could simply be part of his proven negotiation
tactics. World leaders see him as “reckless” in the same way
James Dean’s opponents did, making them reconsider their own
moves. <br>
<br>
Ultimately, Trump may be an unconventional choice, but he is a
skilled negotiator—one who could, in his own way, secure some
advantageous outcomes for the West.</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 at 13:07,
Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">desmith@santafe.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">The
newspapers, and any number of writers, do a good job spelling
all this out.<br>
<br>
I have this frustrated feeling that doing this misses the
point that is driving the dynamic. <br>
<br>
One of the good things that Paxton emphasizes about what
drives fascist movements from the ground up is the determined
rejection of thought in favor of feeling. Hannah Arendt goes
on at length to get the same thing across. <br>
<br>
I envision it (with some discomfort about misfits of the
metaphor) as being like a social counterpart to berserking, or
(even less apt) elephants going into musth. It’s not even
“rage” per se, but something about as destructive, only
chosen.<br>
<br>
I see the various repubs that make communities with the dems,
and speak as if they hope this will “accomplish” some
“change”. For the Bannon-followers, I feel like I know
exactly what this looks like. It is the various subcategories
of hated ones self-identifying, and sewing on their sleeves a
marker of “establishment characters”. Bannon preaches to the
mob: “You see; they’re scared! We have them on the run. If
you’ll just push a little harder we can corner them, and we’ll
give them the beating of their lives. Imagine how powerful
you will feel. They’ll want you to stop, and they won’t be
faking it, but they won’t be able to make you stop. Won’t
that be the best feeling you ever had? You’ll be able to
feel, finally, that you actually exist.” (Bannon doesn’t put
in the final line; I put that in.)<br>
<br>
<br>
I guess I don’t want to argue against the things people are
trying to do (Michael Luttig, various Cheneys, and whoever).
The voting block that can cause the calamity is certainly a
coalition of non-identical groups. If we think there are
categories of Spontaneous Racists and Stimulated Racists (to
borrow a term from spectroscopy), the part of the voting bloc
that is made up of the spontaneous ones may not be all that
large; maybe 20%? Not as large as the evangelicals (35–40%?,
with some overlap). There presumably are some genuinely
out-to-lunch types, and maybe one can imagine that talking has
some place with them, which could be enough to move the margin
of this winner-take-all event we are stuck with. And then the
ones that can think enough to be strategically greedy or
hoarding, but not circumspect enough to have every cared or
understood how the society they suck from actually functions.
_Maybe_ talking could have some effect with them. <br>
<br>
<br>
I have thought, too, since some NYT article by a guy from
Bucks county PA going home, and thinking that the trump voters
actively wanted “the trump vibe; the meanness, bullying and
name-calling, etc.” that this is an expression of a certain
component of nihilism. <br>
<br>
Whoever wrote the screenplay for Apocalypse Now was very
good. Kurtz’s line in one of the soliloquays:<br>
<br>
“Have you ever wondered what it would be like to be completely
free? Free from the judgments of others; even of yourself?”<br>
<br>
There is a core of nihilism in that freedom. What would it
feel like to go punch somebody for no particular reason,
except that I felt like it? Burn whatever some people mean by
“the bonds of human affection” that “include us in humanity”.
Yes, I sort of understand (and this probably is important)
that whoever I hit will now know he has to fear me, and he may
even dislike or hate me, and it may be irreversible. But if
he can’t do anything to me, why do I care? In fact, if he
wants to and still can’t, even better: that will give me that
experience of power that I imagine must be so nice to feel,
but that if it is, I certainly don’t feel now.<br>
<br>
It’s not as simple a category as all that, because they are
willing to do this only if they believe they are members in
the mob. Whether that’s community or just a release from the
requirements of either responsibility or courage I can’t say.<br>
<br>
<br>
But I do think that, in the U.S., a crucial conversion that
Arendt articulates, from a mere mass into a mob, has now been
achieved, and the mob is awake and self-aware as a mob. It
took a sociopath to go charging out across the minefield that
normal people are too chicken to venture into, to show how far
out the actual shooting-boundary is, beyond where they had
drawn back before. But now that the boundary has been
identified, that’s public information, and the others don’t
need to be sociopaths to use it. It changes the problem,
because there are a lot more of them than of the true
sociopaths.<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree, we would like to first get through the next week
without an acute disaster. But the system organization has
passed through a re-arrangement by now. I would like to know
what a program looks like to reverse that, without having to
go through the whole Hodgkin-Huxley circuit of the society’s
destroying itself before there is enough exhaustion to try for
a reset. Since, under the conditions that are likely by that
time, it’s not clear what kind of “reset” might even be
available. <br>
<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Oct 31, 2024, at 4:59 AM, Russ Abbott <<a
href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> To help prevent such a disaster, let's do our best to
help people imagine what the world would look like if Trump
wins.<br>
> <br>
> For example, Trump has said that one of his priorities
would be to throw off the occupying army of invading
immigrants and criminals. Ask people to think about how this
occupying force is currently ruining people's lives. I suspect
that very few people have any experience of such a noxious
invading force. Most people find their lives relatively
peaceful. But if Trump begins to implement his plan to throw
off this occupying force, the streets would be full of armed
deportation agents chasing down the evil occupying forces.
Gunfights would erupt between the deportation agents and
immigrants running for their lives. Many of us would be caught
in the crossfire--or holed up at home trying to avoid the
bullets. Ask people to imagine such a world and to compare it
to the relatively peaceful world we now occupy. Ask them if
that is really what we want and if that is what we will be
voting for next Tuesday.<br>
> <br>
> -- Russ Abbott <br>
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science<br>
> California State University, Los Angeles<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 11:48 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Here in Europe most people are indeed worried that the
candidate who is a convicted felon and wears orange makeup
will become president again. Have his fans all forgotten he
mainly played golf, praised dictators and created tax cuts for
the superrich? But there is also a bit of hope that a woman
will stop him this time. <br>
> <br>
> A hundred years ago there was already a group in America
that hated Blacks and immigrants. As Timothy Egan writes in
his book "A Fever in the Heartland: The Ku Klux Klan's Plot to
Take Over America, and the Woman Who Stopped Them" one of the
Ku Klux Klan leaders was a charismatic charlatan named D.C.
Stephenson. He was eventually brought down by a woman, Madge
Oberholtzer, who would reveal his cruelties, and whose
testimony stopped the Klan. When Europe fell into darkness,
America was able to stop the con man. I hope it can do it
again.<br>
> <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558306/a-fever-in-the-heartland-by-timothy-egan/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558306/a-fever-in-the-heartland-by-timothy-egan/</a><br>
> <br>
> -J.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -------- Original message --------<br>
> From: Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Date: 10/30/24 10:54 PM (GMT+01:00)<br>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Evolutionary transitions between
egalitarian and despotic societies<br>
> <br>
> Hi, Jochen, <br>
> <br>
> Not sarcastic. It was to show the exploratory nature of
such models. I do believe that the most mysterious feature
of charisma is the behavior of the charasmees. However this
election turns out, almost half the country is about to
willingly offer up it's political autonomy to a potential
dictator. Whatever my faults, I try, try, TRY not to do
sarcasm. I do wonder if we could build models that explore
under what circumstances it is better for everybody to do
SOMETHING then to take the time to pool information and do
the right thing. <br>
> <br>
> In general evolutionary history has no actual power to
constrain our present behavior. Our behavior is constrainted
by present events and present behavioral repertoire. <br>
> <br>
> Nick <br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 2:37 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> In her book "The Social Instinct" Nichola Raihani
mentions in chapter 17 the article "An evolutionary model
explaining the Neolithic transition from egalitarianism to
leadership and despotism" from Simon T. Powers as a model how
despotic regimes and dominance hierarchies have evolved in
early human societies.<br>
> <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspb.2014.1349"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspb.2014.1349</a><br>
> <br>
> It reminds me of our recent discussion triggered by
Nick's (sarcastic?) proposal to explain parts of the MAGA
movement in terms of evolutionary psychology. Simon T. Powers
is an interdisciplinary researcher working at the University
of Sterling<br>
> <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://www.stir.ac.uk/people/2013555"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.stir.ac.uk/people/2013555</a><br>
> <br>
> A more recent article from him about "Modelling
transitions between egalitarian, dynamic leader and absolutist
power structures" can be found here<br>
> <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://www.stir.ac.uk/research/hub/publication/2041639"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.stir.ac.uk/research/hub/publication/2041639</a><br>
> <br>
> -J.<br>
> <br>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
> to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Nicholas S. Thompson<br>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br>
> Clark University<br>
> <a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><br>
> <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><br>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
> to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-.
--- -.. .<br>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,sBiGhm4GeuEKEc6z5xiA8CzwCG1thCl6P_AjSF-iz9mrBmNJLk8pAyH_hVP16UE9P_ab04-w7Ew2H9s-PSppD6MMXoj24_V8LDe_Wl-17YM,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,sBiGhm4GeuEKEc6z5xiA8CzwCG1thCl6P_AjSF-iz9mrBmNJLk8pAyH_hVP16UE9P_ab04-w7Ew2H9s-PSppD6MMXoj24_V8LDe_Wl-17YM,&typo=1</a><br>
> to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,eXOJE6YpC_NGwrBTh_7_tCU6klCRKnVaUYq8CRGaHB5p5t_0YhLTnsx26Apc7-Nq6vzrCTsZxlMnSnMTC-g2IUn6mAOAZY6IUVjWE1QRKIFIRfE,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,eXOJE6YpC_NGwrBTh_7_tCU6klCRKnVaUYq8CRGaHB5p5t_0YhLTnsx26Apc7-Nq6vzrCTsZxlMnSnMTC-g2IUn6mAOAZY6IUVjWE1QRKIFIRfE,&typo=1</a><br>
> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,V1I4xsf7uAmtB9HpvGHDM2tnYOcSklHXGeQ8pgZKxpWy8qHAZJFjGhdV_Nb2vC7cPCJYmptUThS900SppXEQHbUlVFfHxTojbTCh14-c5ZzJmouC&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,V1I4xsf7uAmtB9HpvGHDM2tnYOcSklHXGeQ8pgZKxpWy8qHAZJFjGhdV_Nb2vC7cPCJYmptUThS900SppXEQHbUlVFfHxTojbTCh14-c5ZzJmouC&typo=1</a><br>
> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xjO0iUE-fNLKpPBqSs1cXLSiTtdX3jEj0dSObiTHKHslWaRwv2HUA8ZmhCpka09ZPyN3i2iquLBoUcybJKy1mRWnz-XMPAZghbwR9XIPaHnhykzI&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xjO0iUE-fNLKpPBqSs1cXLSiTtdX3jEj0dSObiTHKHslWaRwv2HUA8ZmhCpka09ZPyN3i2iquLBoUcybJKy1mRWnz-XMPAZghbwR9XIPaHnhykzI&typo=1</a><br>
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
-.. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a rel="noreferrer" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a rel="noreferrer"
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a rel="noreferrer"
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>