<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">two things:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">1) It is kind of nonsensical to think of any kind of "evolution from egalitarianism to leadership and despotism." The notion of 'egalitarianism' never occurred to European thinkers until the 15-16th century when explorers discovered some Native American societies that exhibited this trait. The default assumption was a stratified society ever since God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The idea that all neolithic people were societies of equals has no foundation in fact. Some peoples matched the Edenic ideals of Rousseau, others the "nasty, brutish and short" of Hobbes, still others rigidly hierarchical. Nor did the advent of agriculture and cities automatically result in social inequality and (sometimes benign) despotism. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The popular view of human history (neolithic egalitarianism --> modern inequality) is based on cherry picking examples from the prehistoric and historic past that support theories conceived in modern times. It has very little, if any, validity.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">2) Sorry Nick, but <i>"half the country is not about to willingly offer up political autonomy to a potential dictator."</i> Conceding that 'T' fantasizes about being a dictator, even he is not stupid enough to think he could get away with it. And the vast majority (always excluding the lunatic fringe and Christian Nationalists) of that half of the country see the man (however naive or incorrect they may be) as a means of <b><i><u>preserving</u></i></b> their political (and personal) autonomy.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Wed, Oct 30, 2024, at 4:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, Jochen,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Not sarcastic. It was to show the exploratory nature of such models. I do believe that the most mysterious feature of charisma is the behavior of the charasmees. However this election turns out, almost half the country is about to willingly offer up it's political autonomy to a potential dictator. Whatever my faults, I try, try, TRY not to do sarcasm. I do wonder if we could build models that explore under what circumstances it is better for everybody to do SOMETHING then to take the time to pool information and do the right thing. <br></div><div><br></div><div>In general evolutionary history has no actual power to constrain our present behavior. Our behavior is constrainted by present events and present behavioral repertoire. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Nick<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 2:37 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">In her book "The Social Instinct" Nichola Raihani mentions in chapter 17 the article "An evolutionary model explaining the Neolithic transition from egalitarianism to leadership and despotism" from Simon T. Powers as a model how despotic regimes and dominance hierarchies have evolved in </span></span>early human societies.<br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"><a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspb.2014.1349" target="_blank">https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspb.2014.1349</a></span></span><br></p><div><br></div><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">It reminds me of our recent discussion triggered by Nick's (sarcastic?) proposal to explain parts of the MAGA movement in terms of evolutionary psychology. Simon T. Powers is an interdisciplinary researcher working at the University of Sterling</span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"><a href="https://www.stir.ac.uk/people/2013555" target="_blank">https://www.stir.ac.uk/people/2013555</a></span></span><br></p><div><br></div><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">A more recent article from him about "Modelling transitions between egalitarian, dynamic leader and absolutist power structures" can be found here</span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"><a href="https://www.stir.ac.uk/research/hub/publication/2041639" target="_blank">https://www.stir.ac.uk/research/hub/publication/2041639</a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";"></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Google Sans";">-J.</span></span><br></p></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson<br></div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<br></div><div>Clark University<br></div><div><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><br></div><div><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><br></div></div></div><div>-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>