<p dir="ltr">My father was a Naval officer during WW2. I suspect he had friends who had been buried at sea. It appeals to me to be taken out in the ocean and dropped overboard (with weights).</p>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 20, 2025, 8:35 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">morbid, a bit.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">But, just think what 6 billion or so new trees over the next 100 years would do for climate change.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Sun, Jan 19, 2025, at 8:35 PM, steve smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_-4157086546987861038qt"><p>DaveW -<br></p><p>morbid points:<br></p><p>For reasons I don't need to go into, I recently looked into death
and disposal issues.<br></p><p> I did determine that in fact I can legally be buried on my own
private property with very limited constraints (distance from
well, permanent habitation, dwell time before burial extended by
ice or other refrigeration). Much of the soil on my property is
easy enough to dig... though by the time I expect to need it, I
might not be able. I think my hired labor (not to be deported
since he and his wife got their permanent resident status last
summer?) can dig that hole in an hour or two at most. We already
have 3 dogs and 3 cats (we know of) buried here... why not a big
ape also?<br></p><p>I still have a small pile of recycled flooring from Tesuque
Village Market. It is soaked in the DNA of patrons and staff over
the past many decades (I believe it might even be from the
original flooring possibly in the 1920s or 1930s) which could make
a suitable traditional wooden casket. Some future forensic
archeologist will be confounded to discover the spectrum of
genetic material in my gravesite? There are guidelines about
marking such a grave and declaring it's presence to subsequent
owners, but best I can tell those are very un-enforced (able?).
City (and maybe some Counties) rules are likely more strict, but
I'm in the county and being embedded in native sovereign land
(Pueblo), don't get much attention from County folks. <br></p><p>I was once set on arranging an automated (counter-weight) lift
platform in the giant cottonwood behind my house (50+ feet high)
with a good view of Black Mesa where Ravens and Owls both
sometimes nest for my "sky burial". But it IS on native land and
I doubt they would approve, much less agree to a viking being
picked apart by Hugen and Munin whilst dessicating in the dry
heat/cold. Also, my neighbors already find me too much of a
"hippy" and I think they might feel obliged to "tell on me"... not
that I'd be there to care.<br></p><p>The last three people-bodies I sent into the furnace went in in
cardboard caskets, and while I acknowledge the cremation
oven/furnaces used *are* quite fuel-thirsty, I don't think it
compares to what I'll burn in a single leg of a jet flight or a
few months of ICE driving (my ER EV keeps me down to just a few
gallons of dino-juice a month, the rest of the motive energy came
from San Juan coal-fired plants, but now it is Natl Gas with Solar
and Wind coming up fast). I think my previous previous annual
propane (only for oven/range) budget of about 20gallons would be
enough to do the work? <br></p><p>If only we had ice-floes around here... disposal by polar bear or
orca is free and the ultimate sign of respect to the ecosystem?
I doubt a raft would even make it down the Rio Grande to Cochiti
reservoir and some poor kayaker or hiker would have to deal with
making sense of the find... so maybe not that.<br></p><p>I do have a compost pile... I haven't tried composting animal
carcasses of any size, much less my own.<br></p><p>- Steve<br></p><p><br></p><div>On 1/19/25 11:45 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Arial">marginal point:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Should we not mandate NOR (natural
organic reduction) for all human beings? Or, perhaps "sky
burial" ala the Sikhs and some Native American cultures?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Save all the energy required for
cremation and all of the environmentally unfriendly costs of
caskets and concrete vaults that surround them.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Humans to compost to a carbon
capturing tree.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Minnesota just legalized NOR.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Sun, Jan 19, 2025, at 11:47 AM, steve smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_-4157086546987861038qt-qt"><p>Jochen wrote:<br></p><blockquote type="cite"><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:var(--YLNNHc);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto-Medium,sans-serif"></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans"">Natural
ecosystems do not consume more than they give back.
Every biological organism that dies is recycled and used
to build new organisms. If we want to integrate our
society in this only natural habitat which we have then
fossil fuels must be replaced by renewable energy,
carbon dioxide emissions and plastic waste production
must be stopped, deforestation must end, agriculture
must be sustainable, resources must be recycled. Paul
Hawken mentions these steps in his book "Regeneration:
Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation"</span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans""><a href="https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/446598/regeneration-by-hawken-paul/9780141998916" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/446598/regeneration-by-hawken-paul/9780141998916</a></span></span><br></p></blockquote><p>it just so happens that I'm listening to a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e08dWgk-TRo&t=3283s" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Nate Hagens podcast on the topic of
bioregionalism</a> which ties (very abstractly) these points
you are making here with my experiments with Hashlife. The
connection (if not too stretched) is that the adaptation of a
bioregion to human presence is stigmergic and in the sense of
hashlife is vaguely correlated with the idea of
building/maintaining a highly relevant/adaptive suite of
patterns in the environment suitable for the evolution of one
particular subsystem (human individuals, groups). One of the
participants in the panel is an archaelogist who studies
Neanderthal sites extensively who claimed there was a site she
studied extensively which was used as a large-mammal butchery
for roughly 200k years across various climactic shifts...
did this represent acute suitability or a stigmergic change in
the locale which resulted from the earliest uses of the
locale?<br></p><p>The idea that "natural ecosystems do not consume more than
they give back" is an example, however, of my maunderings on
the "TANNSTAFFL" paradox. Circular/toroidal economies do seem
to be less wasteful (in some sense) but Life exists situated
in gradients and while it's signature trick is to export
entropy from it's immediate context, it *exports* it, not
*avoids* it? It seems as if this is all about defining
"systems boundaries" which of course may be a contradiction in
terms (or a tautology?). <br></p><p>I don't know if this is a gibberishy as EricS' recent rant
about how bad science writing is bringing civilization to an
early end or not... but I do think it rhymes?<br></p><blockquote type="cite"><div><br></div><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans"">But it is
more than just a climate crisis, it is "Civilization's
Crisis: A Set Of Linked Challenges" as the book from
John Scales Avery says. We have the interconnected
challenges of climate crisis, refugee crisis, energy
scarcity, population growth, resource depletion, poverty
and economic inequality, pollution and environmental
degradation, and finally the problem of war and nuclear
weapons. Solving all these interconnected crises in our
capitalistic economic system seems to be impossible. </span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans"">John says
we need to achieve a steady state economic system.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans""><a href="https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10501?srsltid=AfmBOopEymNyWKHnCaxz--HVIq0KJOayH5IYnOGfzHnri2zz6jeBMsEp" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10501?srsltid=AfmBOopEymNyWKHnCaxz--HVIq0KJOayH5IYnOGfzHnri2zz6jeBMsEp</a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans""></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr">-J.<br></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><br></p><div><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" align="left"><div>-------- Original message --------<br></div><div>From: Santafe <a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><desmith@santafe.edu></a><br></div><div>Date: 1/19/25 12:04 PM (GMT+01:00)<br></div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam@redfish.com></a><br></div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fredkin/Toffoli, Reversibility and
Adiabatic Computing.<br></div><div><br></div></div><div>I think Jochen is right, that civilization will collapse.
And the reason is that people keep writing articles like
this one (a couple of clicks deep from Steve’s TechCrunch
link)<br></div><div><div style="display:block"><div role="link" style="display:inline-block"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:300px;background-color:rgb(229,230,233);font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" width="300" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td align="center"><img src="cid:part1.0q0d0IWg.7GU03Qtw@swcp.com" alt="8dcc397c-a086-4abc-add0-ea3fa8f75082_1600x1224.png" style="width:300px;height:150px" width="300" height="150"><br></td></tr><tr><td><table style="font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;table-layout:fixed;background-color:rgb(229,230,233)" width="300" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor="#E5E6E9"><tbody><tr><td style="padding-top:8px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:8px;padding-left:0px"><div style="max-width:100%;margin-top:0px;margin-right:16px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:16px;overflow-x:hidden;overflow-y:hidden"><div style="font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow-x:hidden;overflow-y:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a style="text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(39,39,39)">🔮
Breaking the energy barrier with
reversible computing</span></a><br></div><div style="font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow-x:hidden;overflow-y:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a style="text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128)">exponentialview.co</span></a><br></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div><div>about entropy.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Like Charles de Gaulle’s (apocryphal?) “How can you
govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?”, how
can a society continue that is committed to making entropy
into voodoo?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here are some old war-horses, never put out to pasture
where they belong:<br></div><div><br></div><div><p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">The
law that this potential reduction in energy all depends
on is the second law of thermodynamics, which states
that entropy (unusable energy or disorder) increases
over time. As a result, everything ultimately runs down
and releases waste heat. <br></p><div><br></div></div><div>(my complaint is the parenthesis: entropy is not
energy, usable or otherwise). And later <br></div><div><br></div><div><p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">Landauer
created a formula for the energy in joules released per
binary bit deleted. If we express his original equation
in natural units of energy and information, the equation
is astoundingly simple:<br></p><p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px"><i><span>Energy (in natural units) =
Information (in nats)</span><a style="color:var(--print_pop);text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;vertical-align:super;line-height:0;font-size:14px;margin-left:4px" rel="noreferrer" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1#footnote-1-144839107" id="m_-4157086546987861038qt-qt-footnote-anchor-1-144839107" target="_blank">1</a></i><br></p><p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">Now,
this doesn’t prove that energy and information are
equivalent in the same way that Einstein proved that
mass and energy were equivalent, but it is a tantalising
possibility.<br></p></div><div><br></div><div>It’s not a tantalizing possibility. It’s a meaningless
nonsense-locution that you say to people if you don’t
think they could understand a correct description and
don’t really care anyway. <br></div><div><br></div><div>The above are related to the writer (of the TechCrunch
link?) saying that <br></div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(33,38,35)"><span style="font-family:nb_international_proregular,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:19px"> Effectively,
energy is retained inside the chip instead of being
released as heat.</span></span></span><br></div><div><br></div><div>No. There could be energy on the chip, but that’s not
what the relation is about.<br></div><div><br></div><div>What is retained in the chip is specificity among
choices. Whether or not there is any energy difference in
one choice versus another has nothing to do with
anything’s being “retained inside the chip”.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The reason Landauer’s relation (in any of its variants)
holds is that, to recycle chip-state, you have to have a
way to rotate the state-entropy out into a thermal bath.
More specifically, there has to be a way to rotate any
state from the chip into some corresponding state in the
bath such that the chip is returned to a default state to
receive the next inputs. Because the signal state that
you are rotating out could be any allowed one, the
bath-state that you need to rotate it into needs likewise
to be one from an ensemble. It is to make the _bath
states_ populatable that you need to supply entropy-less
energy (aka work), which the bath then moves into
no-longer-controlled degrees of freedom (aka heat).<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I’m not actually up on a high horse, and write as if I
were mostly to make myself absurd. I really don’t care
one way or another. But there is a thing in here about
being real to people that seems important to me as a
theoretician, as it has to do with envisioning a different
world. Increasingly I have some time with Sci-Com people,
and they are remarkably un-bothered by the thing that, to
me, seems like the core of all later choices:<br></div><div><br></div><div>What if, when we talked to people, we either tried to
give our best ability to be understood, or like Quakers,
we just stayed quiet. The motive being that, if we aren’t
giving them something we intend them to understand, then
we must be doing something else. Hoping we make ourselves
look smart? Fashionable? That feels icky (dishonorable)
to me, in the attitude one person evidently has about
others. They are there to fuel vanity; not as peers who
deserve knowledge if your guild is the knowledge workers.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Sure, we all mess up. But our society now is
structured around relations where I think people really
don’t care, and this casual clowning is taken to be the
default, and all fine. It makes me uncomfortable.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Eric<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 18, 2025, at 19:03, steve smith <a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><sasmyth@swcp.com></a> wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><p>Pieter -<br></p><p>Good find. It lead me to Vaire and then to the
Sandia/ABQ work of Michael Frank who left to
join/found Vaire this summer? It is possible
that my renewed interest in reversible computing
might have been triggered subliminally by some
reference to both/either? <br></p><p><a href="https://techcrunch.com/2024/07/01/vaire-computing-raises-4-5m-for-reversible-computing-moonshot-which-could-drastically-reduce-energy-needs/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://techcrunch.com/2024/07/01/vaire-computing-raises-4-5m-for-reversible-computing-moonshot-which-could-drastically-reduce-energy-needs/</a><br></p><p><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fvaire.co%2f&c=E,1,7Yg6L5oMzyVTF9DuV3PSwOaj-V9Ifx9465R3NgRWVhnPUMCny23gFq_YnGVxv6ZGpVLLqMfg1QaQD1BjbgxIFv1SkxLkqM3VE-jtMwEi&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://vaire.co/</a><br></p><p>I thought I'd been triggered by the combination
of the demands of AI and on data centers (my
daughter closed her gym of 10 years to take a job
in a data center development startup a year ago...
). <br></p><p>My inability to attribute such things, parallels
that of LLMs (or more generally transformer
models)?<br></p><div>- Steve<br></div></div><div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-.
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