<div dir="ltr"><br>I asked Grok "please give me an overview of Steven Pinker's optimistic view of the future"<br><br>Steven Pinker is a cognitive psychologist and linguist who has become well-known for his optimistic view on the future, particularly through his books like "The Better Angels of Our Nature" and "Enlightenment Now." Here's an overview of his perspective:<br><br>Core Arguments:<br>Decline in Violence:<br>Pinker argues that, historically, violence has been on a significant downward trend. He points to various metrics like homicide rates, deaths from wars, and even the treatment of animals to show that humanity has become less violent over time.<br>Human Progress:<br>He emphasizes improvements in health, life expectancy, education, human rights, and economic prosperity. For instance, life expectancy has doubled over the last century, extreme poverty has plummeted, and literacy rates have soared.<br>The Enlightenment Values:<br>Pinker attributes much of this progress to the spread of Enlightenment values such as reason, science, humanism, and progress itself. He believes these values have driven societal improvements by promoting skepticism, evidence-based reasoning, and a commitment to human welfare.<br>Countering Pessimism:<br>Pinker often critiques what he sees as an undue pessimism in modern society, fueled by media bias towards negative news, which skews perceptions of the world. He uses statistical data to argue that, contrary to popular belief, many aspects of life are getting better.<br>Rational Optimism:<br>His optimism isn't blind; it's grounded in data and historical trends. Pinker acknowledges setbacks and challenges but argues that the overall trajectory points towards improvement. He advocates for a "rational optimism" where one acknowledges problems but also the capacity to solve them.<br><br>Key Points from His Works:<br>In "The Better Angels of Our Nature," he discusses how human nature includes both violent and peaceful tendencies, with the latter increasingly dominant due to social, cultural, and economic changes.<br>In "Enlightenment Now," Pinker elaborates on how Enlightenment thinking has led to tangible improvements in various aspects of life, from health to peace, and why these trends can continue if we uphold Enlightenment values.<br><br>Critiques and Challenges:<br>Some critics argue Pinker overlooks or downplays ongoing global issues like climate change, economic inequality, or the potential for technological misuse, which could undo or complicate the progress he highlights.<br>Others challenge his methodology, pointing out that statistics can be misleading or that his selection of data might be biased towards positive trends.<br><br>Conclusion:<br>Pinker's view is that by understanding our history through the lens of data, we can appreciate the progress made and be motivated to continue this trajectory. He encourages a proactive approach to problem-solving based on science, reason, and humanistic values. Despite criticisms, his work has sparked significant debate about how we perceive our past, present, and future, promoting a more hopeful, albeit cautious, outlook on what lies ahead.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 at 00:20, Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Richard Heinberg can formulate it probably better than I. He has defined in his book "Peak Everything" ( <a href="https://newsociety.com/book/peak-everything/" target="_blank">https://newsociety.com/book/peak-everything/</a> ) the following 5 axioms of sustainability:</span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">1. (Tainter’s Axiom): Any society that continues to use critical resources unsustainably will collapse</span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">2. (Bartlett’s Axiom): Population growth and/or growth in the rates of consumption of resources cannot be sustained.</span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">3. To be sustainable, the use of renewable resources must proceed at a rate that is less than or equal to the rate of natural replenishment.</span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">4. To be sustainable, the use of NON-renewable resources must proceed at a rate that is declining, and the rate of decline must be greater than or equal to the rate of depletion. </span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">5. Sustainability requires that substances introduced into the environment from human activities be minimized and rendered harmless to biosphere functions</span></p><br dir="auto"><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://richardheinberg.com/178-five-axioms-of-sustainability" target="_blank">https://richardheinberg.com/178-five-axioms-of-sustainability</a></span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">-J.</span></p><p style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></p><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> </div><div>Date: 1/19/25 6:48 PM (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a> </div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fredkin/Toffoli, Reversibility and Adiabatic Computing. </div><div><br></div></div>
<p>Jochen wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto-Medium,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">Natural
ecosystems do not consume more than they give back. Every
biological organism that dies is recycled and used to build
new organisms. If we want to integrate our society in this
only natural habitat which we have then fossil fuels must be
replaced by renewable energy, carbon dioxide emissions and
plastic waste production must be stopped, deforestation must
end, agriculture must be sustainable, resources must be
recycled. Paul Hawken mentions these steps in his book
"Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation"</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/446598/regeneration-by-hawken-paul/9780141998916" target="_blank">https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/446598/regeneration-by-hawken-paul/9780141998916</a></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p>it just so happens that I'm listening to a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e08dWgk-TRo&t=3283s" target="_blank">Nate
Hagens podcast on the topic of bioregionalism</a> which ties
(very abstractly) these points you are making here with my
experiments with Hashlife. The connection (if not too stretched)
is that the adaptation of a bioregion to human presence is
stigmergic and in the sense of hashlife is vaguely correlated with
the idea of building/maintaining a highly relevant/adaptive suite
of patterns in the environment suitable for the evolution of one
particular subsystem (human individuals, groups). One of the
participants in the panel is an archaelogist who studies
Neanderthal sites extensively who claimed there was a site she
studied extensively which was used as a large-mammal butchery for
roughly 200k years across various climactic shifts... did this
represent acute suitability or a stigmergic change in the locale
which resulted from the earliest uses of the locale?<br>
</p>
<p>The idea that "natural ecosystems do not consume more than they
give back" is an example, however, of my maunderings on the
"TANNSTAFFL" paradox. Circular/toroidal economies do seem to be
less wasteful (in some sense) but Life exists situated in
gradients and while it's signature trick is to export entropy from
it's immediate context, it *exports* it, not *avoids* it? It
seems as if this is all about defining "systems boundaries" which
of course may be a contradiction in terms (or a tautology?). <br>
</p>
<p>I don't know if this is a gibberishy as EricS' recent rant about
how bad science writing is bringing civilization to an early end
or not... but I do think it rhymes?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"><br dir="auto">
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">But
it is more than just a climate crisis, it is "Civilization's
Crisis: A Set Of Linked Challenges" as the book from John
Scales Avery says. We have the interconnected challenges of
climate crisis, refugee crisis, energy scarcity, population
growth, resource depletion, poverty and economic inequality,
pollution and environmental degradation, and finally the
problem of war and nuclear weapons. Solving all these
interconnected crises in our capitalistic economic system
seems to be impossible. </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Google Sans"">John
says we need to achieve a steady state economic system.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10501?srsltid=AfmBOopEymNyWKHnCaxz--HVIq0KJOayH5IYnOGfzHnri2zz6jeBMsEp" target="_blank">https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10501?srsltid=AfmBOopEymNyWKHnCaxz--HVIq0KJOayH5IYnOGfzHnri2zz6jeBMsEp</a></span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">-J.</p>
<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div align="left" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Santafe <a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" target="_blank"><desmith@santafe.edu></a> </div>
<div>Date: 1/19/25 12:04 PM (GMT+01:00) </div>
<div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fredkin/Toffoli, Reversibility and
Adiabatic Computing. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
I think Jochen is right, that civilization will collapse. And the
reason is that people keep writing articles like this one (a
couple of clicks deep from Steve’s TechCrunch link)
<div>
<div style="display:block">
<div style="display:inline-block" role="link"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:block;width:300px;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1" dir="ltr" role="button" width="300" target="_blank">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="300" style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:300px;background-color:rgb(229,230,233);font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td align="center"><img height="150" width="300" name="m_-5526877134614539275_com_samsung_android_email_attachmentprovider_1_3548_RAW_1737291099023" style="width: 300px; height: 150px;" alt="8dcc397c-a086-4abc-add0-ea3fa8f75082_1600x1224.png" src="cid:ii_19481f56d2bcf2ffd741"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
<table bgcolor="#E5E6E9" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="300" style="font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;table-layout:fixed;background-color:rgb(229,230,233)">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:8px 0px">
<div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px;overflow:hidden">
<div style="font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#272727" style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.847)">🔮 Breaking the
energy barrier with reversible
computing</font></a></div>
<div style="font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#808080" style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.498)">exponentialview.co</font></a></div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</a></div>
</div>
<div>about entropy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Like Charles de Gaulle’s (apocryphal?) “How can you govern
a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?”, how can a
society continue that is committed to making entropy into
voodoo?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here are some old war-horses, never put out to pasture
where they belong:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">The
law that this potential reduction in energy all depends on
is the second law of thermodynamics, which states that
entropy (unusable energy or disorder) increases over time.
As a result, everything ultimately runs down and releases
waste heat. </p>
<br>
</div>
<div>(my complaint is the parenthesis: entropy is not energy,
usable or otherwise). And later </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">Landauer
created a formula for the energy in joules released per
binary bit deleted. If we express his original equation in
natural units of energy and information, the equation is
astoundingly simple:</p>
<p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px"><em><span>Energy
(in natural units) = Information (in nats)</span><a id="m_-5526877134614539275footnote-anchor-1-144839107" href="https://www.exponentialview.co/p/reversible-computing-1#footnote-1-144839107" rel="" target="_blank">1</a></em></p>
<p style="line-height:1.6em;color:rgb(54,55,55);font-family:Spectral,serif,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:19px">Now,
this doesn’t prove that energy and information are
equivalent in the same way that Einstein proved that mass
and energy were equivalent, but it is a tantalising
possibility.</p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It’s not a tantalizing possibility. It’s a meaningless
nonsense-locution that you say to people if you don’t think
they could understand a correct description and don’t really
care anyway. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The above are related to the writer (of the TechCrunch
link?) saying that </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(33,38,35);font-family:nb_international_proregular,sans-serif;font-size:19px"> Effectively,
energy is retained inside the chip instead of being released
as heat.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No. There could be energy on the chip, but that’s not what
the relation is about.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What is retained in the chip is specificity among choices.
Whether or not there is any energy difference in one choice
versus another has nothing to do with anything’s being
“retained inside the chip”.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The reason Landauer’s relation (in any of its variants)
holds is that, to recycle chip-state, you have to have a way
to rotate the state-entropy out into a thermal bath. More
specifically, there has to be a way to rotate any state from
the chip into some corresponding state in the bath such that
the chip is returned to a default state to receive the next
inputs. Because the signal state that you are rotating out
could be any allowed one, the bath-state that you need to
rotate it into needs likewise to be one from an ensemble. It
is to make the _bath states_ populatable that you need to
supply entropy-less energy (aka work), which the bath then
moves into no-longer-controlled degrees of freedom (aka heat).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’m not actually up on a high horse, and write as if I were
mostly to make myself absurd. I really don’t care one way or
another. But there is a thing in here about being real to
people that seems important to me as a theoretician, as it has
to do with envisioning a different world. Increasingly I have
some time with Sci-Com people, and they are remarkably
un-bothered by the thing that, to me, seems like the core of
all later choices:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if, when we talked to people, we either tried to give
our best ability to be understood, or like Quakers, we just
stayed quiet. The motive being that, if we aren’t giving them
something we intend them to understand, then we must be doing
something else. Hoping we make ourselves look smart?
Fashionable? That feels icky (dishonorable) to me, in the
attitude one person evidently has about others. They are
there to fuel vanity; not as peers who deserve knowledge if
your guild is the knowledge workers.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sure, we all mess up. But our society now is structured
around relations where I think people really don’t care, and
this casual clowning is taken to be the default, and all fine.
It makes me uncomfortable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 18, 2025, at 19:03, steve smith
<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank"><sasmyth@swcp.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>Pieter -</p>
<p>Good find. It lead me to Vaire and then to the
Sandia/ABQ work of Michael Frank who left to
join/found Vaire this summer? It is possible that my
renewed interest in reversible computing might have
been triggered subliminally by some reference to
both/either? </p>
<p><a href="https://techcrunch.com/2024/07/01/vaire-computing-raises-4-5m-for-reversible-computing-moonshot-which-could-drastically-reduce-energy-needs/" target="_blank">https://techcrunch.com/2024/07/01/vaire-computing-raises-4-5m-for-reversible-computing-moonshot-which-could-drastically-reduce-energy-needs/
<br>
</a></p>
<p><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fvaire.co%2f&c=E,1,7Yg6L5oMzyVTF9DuV3PSwOaj-V9Ifx9465R3NgRWVhnPUMCny23gFq_YnGVxv6ZGpVLLqMfg1QaQD1BjbgxIFv1SkxLkqM3VE-jtMwEi&typo=1" target="_blank">https://vaire.co/</a><br>
</p>
<p>I thought I'd been triggered by the combination of
the demands of AI and on data centers (my daughter
closed her gym of 10 years to take a job in a data
center development startup a year ago... ). <br>
</p>
<p>My inability to attribute such things, parallels that
of LLMs (or more generally transformer models)?</p>
- Steve<br>
</div>
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archives: 5/2017 thru present
<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,8-rTJlMb4CPIKKvzolJDIVhjM6u2RCZGNTcSIn92ODKcto1bVHyxx5NDYzCJtHBMP-wyInKPSZRvhlZhomwdlCJbVw4MOnpDztar40RC&typo=1" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,8-rTJlMb4CPIKKvzolJDIVhjM6u2RCZGNTcSIn92ODKcto1bVHyxx5NDYzCJtHBMP-wyInKPSZRvhlZhomwdlCJbVw4MOnpDztar40RC&typo=1</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
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</blockquote>
</div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>