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<p>marcus -</p>
<p>I suspect (strongly) that you are much more competent at steering
Claude to help you write/debug code than I will ever be. That
said, however, I find that it (GPT in my case) meets me well at my
own level of (in)competence. It susses out about 60% of my
prompt's intentions well, perhaps 20% of my intentions oddly, and
20% of them patently wrong. I haven't had much luck getting it
to reflect back on that 40% and align itself better. Iteration
generally helps me find an asymptote to the desired/correct/useful
solution.<br>
</p>
<p>Trying to iteratively correct it's apprehension too often leads
to the throat of a rabbit hole (usually not before I can recognize
it and scramble back out) but my best results seem to come from
letting GPT *debug me*... after I've achieved several
un(der)satisfying results and climbed in and out of the mouth or
throat of a rabbit hole or two, the best thing I can usually do is
to begin an entirely new thread (tell GPT to forget everything
we've done or discussed on the topic) and start fresh with a new
appreciation of the landscape of the problem, my own flawed
understanding of it and the shape and location of GPT's rabbit
holes in relation to my own. </p>
<p> When i am done (or give up out of cringing exhaustion with my
own foolishness made clear by GPT's clear (but
not-particularly-introspective) "help") I feel that I understand
the problem and solution space much better. Often
(unsurprisingly?) enough that I'm no longer interested in that
solution. It is worth noting that this applies as much to
non-programming problem solving, ranging from repairing/upgrading
my domestic well/water-system to designing an appropriate addition
to my house which is (mostly) within my ability to execute the
build whilst sourcing most materials and labor acutely
sustainably/locally to sussing out why the hell my second hip
replacement left me with virtually no dorsiflexion in the
associated foot (formerly known as the least deteriorated hip/leg)
and whether my 30 year old yoga injury (rotated L4) was triggered
by the manipulation of said leg during the time they were removing
the old rusty hinge and putting in a new shiny ceramic-titanium
one with a "lifetime warranty"? Or ideating on whether at my
crusty old age could muster one last entrepreneurial effort
significant and relevant enough to get one of the Canadian/BC
regions to invite me to come spend a big chunk of my
savings/remaining-energy in an attempt to get out from under the
edge of the thumb/shadow of Trump/MAGA. </p>
<p> I'm about 3 for 4 on these. I'm 50/50 likely to do the
wellhouse/plumbing upgrades as well as build the addition and 100%
likely to continue to try to recover 90% of my leg function, but
only about 10% likely to try to escape to Canada based on all this
discussion/ideation. To have achieved this level of clarity on
these issues (most in the past few months) would probably have
taken years and all of the patience of my friends and associates
as I ideated-out-loud and tapped their various expertises and
wisdoms. How many forests or oil/natural-gas fields I caused
OpenAI and their ilk to deplete in the process is a known unknown
for me. Maybe that should be my last hurrah with LLM's, get one
to help talk me out of using LLM's altogether?<br>
</p>
<p>- steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The style of
ChatGPT or Claude or others are just default engineered
styles that provide efficient responses. Noticing it is
identifiable is like noticing that a document was written
using stock LaTeX. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Incidentally,
I’ve noticed Claude is prone to going down rabbit holes when
debugging code. It’s not a terrible approach to software
development, or for that matter housecleaning. If
something, anything, is out of order, put it in order.
While the context of the whole conversation is there and it
is easy to get back on track, I find I must nudge it to pop
the stack with questions like “Do you think fixing this bug
could be relevant to the larger goal?” So long as
conversation lengths are constrained, it would make
customers happier if they tried harder to infer the user’s
goal and go off on tangents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Marcus <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Barry MacKichan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 23, 2025 7:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] May you live in interesting
times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">So
we need an LLM to determine if the Turing test has been
passed? I detect recursion, or as it is commonly called,
a rabbit hole.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Barry<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On
22 Jan 2025, at 20:27, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div id="409AE998-1520-46ED-B086-F133A444309D">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">I
was addressing the mistaken claim that using a LLM
create content is easy to detect. It would require
some thoughtful setup work and testing, but that
could be more fun and educational than writing the
content directly.</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of glen <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gepropella@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date:</b> Wednesday, January 22, 2025 at
5:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] May you live in
interesting times</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">I
bet it can't simulate Marcus. Because most of
Marcus' posts are one liners, often with some
ironic twist that I'm sure is there, but evades
me. I guess if you have enough one liners to
provide examples, then restrict the response to
only a few tokens, that might work. But you'd
prolly also have to get it to iterate a couple of
times... Generate a wordy 0th response, feed that
back in to generate a less wordy 1st response,
etc. ... maybe for 3-5 iterates. Then post the
last one of only 5 words ... and maybe followed by
a random picture from the internet or a link to an
Atlantic article. >8^D<br>
<br>
I think Gillian would also be difficult to
simulate. It would be pretty cool to classify
everyone according to how well they could be
simulated. Of course, there's a disconnect between
the validator and the referent. Just because
everyone other than P agrees that person (P) is
well-simulated doesn't mean the simulator fully
expresses any deeper or interpolated meaning P
steganographically hid in the carrier message.
What's that line by the Butthole Surfers? "Ya
never know just how you look through other
people's eyes."<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/22/25 12:59 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> Easy to avoid this problem.<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of Prof David West<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2025 1:04 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] May you live in
interesting times<br>
><br>
> two things:<br>
><br>
> 1) isn't it interesting that human beings,
with only a short exposure to LLM generated text
can instantly spot 'suspicious' and
'likely-LLM-sourced' writing. Not just glen, but
all of my university professor friends can spot
and know with certainty that LLM generated test
answers or papers are exactly that. The only
problem they have is the bureaucratic procedures
required to hold a student accountable and the
fact that Deans, determined to retain students,
almost always give student's the benefit of the
doubt. It seems to me that ChatGPT, Grok, Claude,
et. al. are failing the Turing test in a most
obvious manner.<br>
><br>
> 2) Free Speech. Why is all the focus on the
speaker? Exactly what difference does it make what
the preacher says, even if using a megaphone, if
no one is on the corner listening? True, if I am
an office worker at my desk, with no option to
work from home, and the megaphone results in my
being, more or less, compelled to listen; there is
an issue. Solution is to take away the megaphone,
nothing more. My right to speak is protected;
there is not right to compel others to listen to
me.<br>
><br>
> in the case of X, I would argue that there is
no compulsion to listen, so no issues of free
speech. I am less certain about Facebook or Tik
Tok, mostly because they have become such
"attractive nuisances" that there is some degree
of compulsion. But the solution is not control of
the speech per se, it is holding the platforms to
the same legal liability as a person who puts in a
pool and someone drowns. The homeowner is liable
for building the attractive nuisance; even if the
homeowner put up a fence and even if the person
trespassed.<br>
><br>
> davew<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, at 2:26 PM, glen wrote:<br>
><br>
> > I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads
like it was generated by an LLM.<br>
><br>
> > My point was that artifacts like
Section 230 are NOT about free speech<br>
><br>
> > in any way, fashion, or form. Free
speech is an individual right that<br>
><br>
> > is meaningless in the context of
platform moderation. Using "section<br>
><br>
> > 230" and "free speech" in the same
context is non sequitur.<br>
><br>
> ><br>
><br>
> > Another analogy is to the public square
(not the "town square"). You<br>
><br>
> > can be trespassed from public spaces,
even though they're public.<br>
><br>
> > While this typically happens from
"disorderly behavior", it could also<br>
><br>
> > happen from "free speech". Elno Musk's
vision for X is simply to<br>
><br>
> > manipulate the zeitgeist to his
benefit, no more, no less. Any<br>
><br>
> > pretense he's doing this for some
*public* good is so obviously false,<br>
><br>
> > I can't believe you (or even Grok)
might believe it.<br>
><br>
> ><br>
><br>
> > Of course, the libertarian principle is
that if there exists a Good,<br>
><br>
> > the best path to it is through the
diversity of visions and pursuits<br>
><br>
> > ... collective "action" through
individuality. Bizarre paths of<br>
><br>
> > failure do tiny bits of damage and fall
away while pursuits and<br>
><br>
> > visions with merit succeed or gain a
(cult) following. But even here,<br>
><br>
> > Elno doesn't fit. He's got too much
money, "controls" too much stuff.<br>
><br>
> > He's no longer an individual. He's an
institution. And, in the same<br>
><br>
> > way that corporations shouldn't have
free speech, Elno should have NO<br>
><br>
> > individual rights because he's not an
individual.<br>
><br>
> ><br>
><br>
> > On 1/22/25 12:04 PM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
><br>
> >> There are multiple dimensions to
the issue of free speech, especially when it comes
to the transition from individual expression to
distribution by platforms like X:<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> Responsibility for Content
Distribution:<br>
><br>
> >> You raise a valid question
regarding who is responsible when a platform
distributes content: the individual who created
the content or the platform that disseminates it?
The answer isn't straightforward due to legal and
ethical complexities. If the speech in question
violates laws, such as defamation, the
responsibility might legally fall on the
individual speaker. However, platforms can also be
held accountable, especially under laws like
Section 230 in the U.S., which currently grants
them immunity from being treated as the publisher
or speaker of user-generated content under certain
conditions. This legal shield is often debated,
particularly in contexts where platforms are seen
to amplify or moderate content in ways that
influence public discourse.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> The Megaphone Analogy:<br>
><br>
> >> Your analogy of a street preacher
with a megaphone is insightful. It highlights that
while the content (the message about God)
originates from the individual, the distribution
(the megaphone) can amplify its reach and impact.
Here, one might argue that the responsibility for
any harm caused could be shared between the
content creator and the tool's provider or user,
depending on how the distribution is managed. This
analogy underscores that free speech isn't just
about what is said but also how it's broadcasted.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> Comparing Distribution of Rights:<br>
><br>
> >> Your comparison to the ownership
and use of handguns versus drones with missiles
further illustrates the point about distribution.
Just as there are restrictions on certain weapons
due to their potential for harm, the distribution
of speech through powerful platforms might
necessitate similar considerations. The key
difference here lies in the scale and potential
impact of distribution. While a handgun's harm is
immediate and localized, a drone's capability
could affect a broader area or population, akin to
how widespread distribution via social media can
influence societal norms or politics.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> The Role of External Pressures:<br>
><br>
> >> Another layer to consider is the
influence of external forces, like government or
"deep state" actors, on media companies. The
example of the Hunter Biden laptop story suggests
a scenario where free speech could be curtailed
not by the platforms themselves but by external
coercion. Elon Musk's vision for X seems to
promise resistance to such pressures, aiming to
uphold free speech by not succumbing to external
dictates on what content should or shouldn't be
shared.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> In essence, while the core
principle of free speech focuses on the
individual's right to express themselves, the
reality of modern communication involves platforms
that significantly alter the reach and impact of
that speech. The promotion of free speech from
individual to distributor involves navigating
these new dimensions of responsibility, ethics,
and law. The question isn't just whether free
speech should be promoted but how it should be
managed in an age where distribution can
exponentially increase its effects, both positive
and negative.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 at 20:35, glen
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">mailto:gepropella@gmail.com</a> <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com%20%3cmailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gepropella@gmail.com%20%3cmailto:gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> I'm confused by this promotion
of "free speech" from the individual to a
platform. When X (or this mailing list)
*distributes* my text, who is ultimately
responsible for that distribution? Me? Or
X/redfish.com <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com">http://redfish.com</a> <<a
href="http://redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com</a>>>?<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> The distribution of some
content is not what I'd call "free speech". Maybe
we could make an analogy to a megaphone. Let's say
some street preacher is shouting about God
(content) through a megaphone (distribution). And
let's say your hearing is damaged by that
megaphone (distribution). Efficient cause suggests
it's the preacher's fault - or maybe your fault
for standing so close. Material/proximal cause
suggests it's the megaphone's fault (or the
manufacturer of the megaphone). But regardless of
where any one person lands in answering that
question, everyone should admit that the content
is not the same as the distribution.<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> A similar argument can be made
about the difference between, say, a handgun and a
drone carrying a hellfire missile. Should my
neighbor Randy be allowed to own (and/or carry
into the sandwich shop) a handgun? Sure, it's
right there in the Bill of Rights. But should
Randy be flying hellfire-laden drones around in
Seattle airspace? No, probably not. What's
different about those questions? My answer is
*distribution*, distribution of the threat (flying
around) and distribution of the damage (missile
vs. lead slug).<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> Why is the promotion of free
speech from individual to distribut[or|ion] any
different from that of other rights?<br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >><br>
><br>
> >> On 1/21/25 10:27 PM, Pieter
Steenekamp wrote:<br>
><br>
> >> ><br>
><br>
> >> > Regarding free speech, I
acknowledge its drawbacks, but what are the
alternatives? During the Biden administration,
there were allegations of pressure on media to
promote a certain narrative, notably around the
Hunter Biden laptop story where 51 former
intelligence officials wrongly suggested it might
be Russian disinformation to influence the 2020
election outcome. This incident illustrates the
dangers of having moderators decide what is true
if those moderators are not guaranteed to be
objective and neutral.<br>
><br>
> >> ><br>
><br>
> >> > The debate on free speech
versus moderated content is complex. While there
are clear pros and cons, I believe that Elon
Musk's approach to free speech on the X platform
(formerly Twitter) is preferable to a system where
moderation is evidently biased, as it was before
Musk's acquisition of the platform. However, the
effectiveness of his free speech policies is still
a topic of debate among users, with some arguing
that the platform's moderation has become less
about curating content for truthfulness and more
about enabling a broader, sometimes unchecked,
range of opinions.<br>
><br>
--<br>
¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:#777777">⊥</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#777777">ɐןןǝdoɹ
ǝ uǝןƃ<br>
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