<div dir="ltr"><div>I dunno, David. I have got some pretty eloquent stuff out of george. It's odd, the more I treat him like a human, the more human he becomes. (And the more he denies it.) I hear you all crying out forth the ineffability of the human soul, but I don't really see it. I think I am eminently eff-able. I figure if I talk long enough with George, he could definitely eff me. I think a time will come when I can turn on a computer and listen to the voice "in my head". It will not be generated by some interface to my brain, but rather by LLM as well educated in my habits of thought as am I. </div><div><br></div><div> N</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 25, 2025 at 8:58\u202fAM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg7661964920064955955"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">Pieter, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">I applaud your use of AI to improve your writing. It is my belief that the<b> "proper"</b> use of AI, along with computers and computing tools in general, is to <u>augment</u> human abilities ala Vannevar Bush's "how we may think," Douglas Englebart's institute, Alan Kay's dynabook, (the fictional Young Ladies Primer of Stephenson's <i>Diamond Age</i>), and Jobs' "bicycle for the mind."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">This is in direct contrast, it seems, to the sentiments of most on this list who think that AI should, and inevitably will, replace "inferior" human intelligence.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">I am curious if you see any question of "voice" in the AI improved text? For example, I took glen's question as nothing more than an observation that the "voice" of your post seemed to that of ChatGPT instead of Pieter\u2014definitely not <b>"augmented-Pieter,"</b> as I believe you intended it to be.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">All of us respect Pieter and value his words. If, however, we are confused by "voice." it raises issues of how much consideration the writing should receive and how we should respond.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Improving oneself, and one's writing, is a great goal. And we all have experienced examples of "I wish I had said that," or "I wish I had expressed that idea as eloquently as she did." If AI tools provide wordings that you admire, or feel express your ideas more eloquently, you should adopt them.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Personally, I do not believe that AI can ever provide more 'eloquent' writing, only more precise or more complete writing. So I, again, strictly personally, would eschew using such tools as currently constructed. I would however, if I had the chance, use Richard Gabriel's tool, <i>Inkwell</i>, which, BTW, he emphatically states is not an AI, to enhance my writing. But Richard is primarily a poet and writer, despite his education and career in AI and computing, and he created <i>Inkwell</i> expressly to be a writer's assistant. I have tremendous respect for Richard's writing and I know he uses Inkwell to enhance his intrinsic abilities.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Fri, Jan 24, 2025, at 10:48 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_7661964920064955955qt"><div dir="ltr"><div>I was surprised by the comment "I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it was generated by an LLM" At first, I just thought, 'so what?' But it got me thinking about how AI changes how we communicate, which is really important to me.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's my main point:<br></div><div><br></div><div>I think it's okay to use others, whether they're people or AI, to help me communicate better, as long as the ideas are mine and I'm not copying someone else's work. If using AI to polish my words bothers someone, we can talk about it.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's some background on why I think this way:<br></div><div><br></div><div>a) Learning to communicate is one of the best things you can take away from school or university. For example if a student is supposed to use her own words in an assignment, then using AI or asking someone else to rewrite is wrong.<br></div><div><br></div><div>b) In the workplace, we've always had people like personal assistants or speech writers. I see using AI in the same way, just a modern tool to help.<br></div><div><br></div><div>c) Writing assistance used to be expensive because you needed people. Now, AI can do the job for free, and that doesn't go against what I believe is right.<br></div><div><br></div><div>d) Your writing should still sound like you. So, I write something first, then ask AI to make it better but keep it simple and in my style, like, 'Please make this sound better but keep it easy to understand.' I now realise I violated this previously and will adapt.<br></div><div><br></div><div>e) Maybe it's good, depending on the situation, to mention when you've used AI in your writing.<br></div><div><br></div><div>f) Here's a funny story: I used AI to help write a message for an AI workshop, and someone complimented the writing so much they suggested I should be a writer instead!<br></div><div><br></div><div>My bottom line:<br></div><div><br></div><div>I plan to add a note at the end of each message in this group saying I used AI to help with my writing. If my using AI is a problem for anyone here, feel free to ask me to leave the group or simply remove me from the group.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Note: I use AI to assist my writing.<br></div></div><div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div></div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div></blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div><div>Clark University</div><div><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a></div><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a></div></div>