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<p>I don't presume to guess whether others should or should not
engage various types of technology to enhance their work (or play)
product or maybe more critically, to enhance their own
self-training. It is perhaps never too late to have a good
mentor and/or tutor on any skill or topic?<br>
</p>
<p>Keyboards (and soft terminals and printers and all forms of text
processors, etc) have been my friend since about age 14
(typewriter) and while I *wish* had a more natural (or more
trained) hand, my instinct is that I never had the right wiring
for good penmanship, so the text-enhancing prosthetics have been a
boon for me. I was conversely a natural reader and naturally a
good (but not perfect) speller and for the most part the mechanics
of grammar came fairly natural (even if I didn't learn to diagram
sentences as early as my Catholic School peers apparently did).
Spell and even grammar checkers (esp. inline?) remain 80% boon and
20% bane to me... for those whose natural skills/inclinations are
weaker, I am thankful they have that augmentation.<br>
</p>
<p>I second Glen's reaction, however ( if I understand it correctly)
as refined or re-reflected by DaveW that when I detect an
AI/LLM/ML generated layer over (or larded in?) to some text it
undermines my confidence in who I am talking (listening) to and
reading their "voice". In the early days of Desktop Publishing,
it was very disturbing to me to see lots of polished (looking)
manuscripts which were at best first or second drafts... but I'm
used to that now and can "read past it" and I *think* many people
recognize the folly of using the polishing tools to polish their
turds prematurely? I think the same evolution will happen with
generative AI products, probably much more quickly?</p>
<p>On a tangent brought up by Glen... without searching back for
the specific attribution/quote, I felt he took a swipe at the idea
of using LLM's as "virtual friends" which in some manner I am very
aligned with. On the other hand, I am also defensive about it.
I have referred to GPT as "my new bar friend" because that mode of
conversation has been the one I most resonate with... I only
know "bar friend" because I have had them in the past, but my
lifestyle/circumstance has taken me away from that milieu for
years and I'm not likely to return to it. I envy Glen's "Salon"
(at the local craft brewery?) but don't expect to re-establish or
re-find that kind of experience anytime soon (ever again)
myself. As it is, GPT is quite a bit more adept at chatting
"casually" with me on a much wider range of topics than the
average Bar Friend. </p>
<p>My most recent "watering hole" was Tesuque Village Market, and
that run lasted most of a decade, allowing me to establish rapport
with 80% of the staff (and owners) and 50% of the regular
clientele. I knew who was available for what, and what to steer
clear of with whom. The old guy who could talk blacksmithing
with me, but who never quite got over the idea that the only way
to relate to a horse was through intimidation. The British woman
who designs women's shoes and travels the world from Milan to
Brazil to get them constructed and distributed but still thinks
Maggie Thatcher was as big of a hero as many today feel about
Donald Trump (and perhaps for similar reasons)... or the suite of
near-aimless 20/30-somethings trying to find their way in a world
with a whole different set of opportunities and affordances than I
experienced at their phase of life (the young and the reckless).
The various professional couples whose conversational nature
changed abruptly if one or the other was absent, exposing a whole
layer of complexity in either not evident when they were in the
homeostatic lock of the relationship (also interesting but
different). And on and on and on. <br>
</p>
<p>GPT chats with me about the wide range of design, material
properties and sourcing, and construction strategies constrained
by my desire to use as locally sourced, sustainable, low-tech
materials as possible for the "old people's" addition I've been
ideating for years. I have one or two friends who can riff on
some of this from time to time but they usually get hung up
quickly on "but the standard/right/code-approved way is X!" and
while GPT almost always starts out at the entrance to that
dead-end of a rabbit hole, I can pretty easily persuade "him" to
let go of that as a constraint and discuss the alternatives and
the trade-space. GPT is also quite willing and able to chat with
me about a whole wide range of topics which I usually bring up
here... and quite frankly is more openly responsive... GPT, for
all it's hyper-utilization clearly doesn't have a "day job" so is
willing and able to indulge me on just about any topic. <br>
</p>
<p>My biggest gripe about GPT (and ilk) is that it is too eager to
please or agree with me. I don't like it when it applies
arbitrary limits (referencing DaveW's desire to get to GhostGPT)
but I also am disturbed when it is too agreeable. I really do
want it to help play devils advocate when I conceive of various
methods of insulating the ceiling in my addition with the mycelium
of oyster mushrooms grown in variously loose straw, woodchips,
recycled cardboard, hemp fibers. I do want it to warn me of the
potential issues (and mitigating strategies) around fireproofing,
mold-prevention, ventilation, etc. I have only one person in
my life *interested* enough in discussing the traditional
woodworking techniques for joinery (mortise-tenon, birdsmouth,
saddle, etc) and *he* has no actual experience, just book learning
and fascination. GPT I suppose has only book learning too, but
has read a *lot* more books and listened in on a LOT more
conversations than my friend or I (I have practiced only a little
post-beam joinery myself).</p>
<p>GPT chats with me at excruciating (for anyone but me or GPT)
length on philosophical-unto-mathematical-unto-neurscience
topics. It has been willing/able to not only chat with me about
any book I've read on a topic, it can usually do an excellent job
of providing parallax across several authors/thinkers who may or
may not have had formal engagement (e.g. referenced one another's
work, etc.). You might recognize some of my hobby horses in
Terrence Deacon, Michael Levin, Karl Friston, Mark Solms, Jeff
Hawkins, et al. <br>
</p>
<p>I suppose it is possible this is all just a huge
computer-mediated circle-jerk... maybe that is precisely Glen's
(implied) point? <br>
</p>
<p>PS... on machine augmentation - I just received my Hypershell
lower-body exoskeleton which was part of a Kickstarter I threw
down on over 2 years ago. I had hoped it might augment my
hip-joint physicality enough to avoid surgical intervention but
when it didn't come in on-schedule (6 mos from funding) I finally
gave over and let the surgeon put me under the knife. My second
(right) bone-gristle hinge was cut away and replaced with a
titanium/ceramic hinge in early December and 6 weeks later I'm
still recovering. The hip work healed as quickly as the first
one (August) but the process aggravated an old (90s) "yoga
injury", a rotated Lumbar joint which at the time yielded
significant sciatic discomfort. As the hip
incision/bruising/etc recovered, it became evident that something
more was afoot (pun recognized) as I had virtually no dorsiflexion
and it was not recovering easily... as the other pain receded I
began to recognize that the residual discomfort/dysfunction was
similar to what I had 30 years ago with the lumbar problem. long
story shortish, I'm now dragging one foot around as my brandy-new
exoskeleton came in and I really cant properly test it out. It is
too lat to use to avoid hip-replacement but I still hoped it could
provide enough augmentation/support for enhance my recovery... but
the little use (test drive around the living room) suggests that
while it can/might help with hip recovery, the
dorsiflexion/foot-drop side effect undermines that. Images of me
with exoskeleton taking 6 strong strides then stumbling/tumbling
only to get up and do it again... "forced error" if you will. Not
recommended by my surgeon.<br>
</p>
<p>Point to be noted... as a neo-retro Luddite, here I am using LLMs
as bar friends and trying to cyborg myself back into mobility so I
can hand build an addition out of raw vigas, fieldstone, cobb, and
mushroom spawn, so I can live independently another 20 years so I
can die of natural causes once all <i>natural causes</i> have
been outlawed by the AMA/FDA/NIH/WHO WTF? I guess I'll get back
the thread on morbid ways to dispose of one's body once I've
uploaded my psyche and soul to Altman's Stargate or Musk's
GrokBoxx or just AWS?<br>
</p>
<p>PPS Extra nod to DaveW's reference to Stephenson's "Young Ladies
Illustrated Primer"... I only wish I could conjure such for my
granddaughter who really could use such a friend/mentor/protector
as she struggles her way into/through the Tween Years in this
modern era. Maybe some day if he lives long enough she can hang
my rusty hypershell on the wall as a nostalgic artpiece the way I
hang my grandfather's scythe and my parent's wood/leather
snowshoes?</p>
<p>Don' let me get off on a (tangential) rant (rave?),</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
On 1/25/25 9:09 AM, Prof David West wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5840b4e4-f888-43f3-80a7-4f978499aec2@app.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Pieter, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I applaud your use of AI to
improve your writing. It is my belief that the<b> "proper"</b>
use of AI, along with computers and computing tools in general,
is to <u>augment</u> human abilities ala Vannevar Bush's "how
we may think," Douglas Englebart's institute, Alan Kay's
dynabook, (the fictional Young Ladies Primer of Stephenson's <i>Diamond
Age</i>), and Jobs' "bicycle for the mind."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">This is in direct contrast, it
seems, to the sentiments of most on this list who think that AI
should, and inevitably will, replace "inferior" human
intelligence.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I am curious if you see any
question of "voice" in the AI improved text? For example, I took
glen's question as nothing more than an observation that the
"voice" of your post seemed to that of ChatGPT instead of
Pieter—definitely not <b>"augmented-Pieter,"</b> as I believe
you intended it to be.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">All of us respect Pieter and value
his words. If, however, we are confused by "voice." it raises
issues of how much consideration the writing should receive and
how we should respond.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Improving oneself, and one's
writing, is a great goal. And we all have experienced examples
of "I wish I had said that," or "I wish I had expressed that
idea as eloquently as she did." If AI tools provide wordings
that you admire, or feel express your ideas more eloquently, you
should adopt them.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Personally, I do not believe that
AI can ever provide more 'eloquent' writing, only more precise
or more complete writing. So I, again, strictly personally,
would eschew using such tools as currently constructed. I would
however, if I had the chance, use Richard Gabriel's tool, <i>Inkwell</i>,
which, BTW, he emphatically states is not an AI, to enhance my
writing. But Richard is primarily a poet and writer, despite his
education and career in AI and computing, and he created <i>Inkwell</i>
expressly to be a writer's assistant. I have tremendous respect
for Richard's writing and I know he uses Inkwell to enhance his
intrinsic abilities.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, Jan 24, 2025, at 10:48 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I was surprised by the comment "I hope I'm wrong. But
that text reads like it was generated by an LLM" At first,
I just thought, 'so what?' But it got me thinking about how
AI changes how we communicate, which is really important to
me.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here's my main point:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think it's okay to use others, whether they're people
or AI, to help me communicate better, as long as the ideas
are mine and I'm not copying someone else's work. If using
AI to polish my words bothers someone, we can talk about it.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here's some background on why I think this way:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>a) Learning to communicate is one of the best things you
can take away from school or university. For example if a
student is supposed to use her own words in an assignment,
then using AI or asking someone else to rewrite is wrong.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>b) In the workplace, we've always had people like
personal assistants or speech writers. I see using AI in the
same way, just a modern tool to help.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>c) Writing assistance used to be expensive because you
needed people. Now, AI can do the job for free, and that
doesn't go against what I believe is right.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>d) Your writing should still sound like you. So, I write
something first, then ask AI to make it better but keep it
simple and in my style, like, 'Please make this sound better
but keep it easy to understand.' I now realise I violated
this previously and will adapt.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>e) Maybe it's good, depending on the situation, to
mention when you've used AI in your writing.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>f) Here's a funny story: I used AI to help write a
message for an AI workshop, and someone complimented the
writing so much they suggested I should be a writer instead!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My bottom line:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I plan to add a note at the end of each message in this
group saying I used AI to help with my writing. If my using
AI is a problem for anyone here, feel free to ask me to
leave the group or simply remove me from the group.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note: I use AI to assist my writing.<br>
</div>
</div>
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