<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/25 11:29 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB59850F22266996FBF1D93096C5EF2@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator"
content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style>@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:11.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It could be
good for Trump to stay, because the betrayal could be deeply
demoralizing and humiliating to his supporters. We may
NEED this damage. Thomas Friedman noticed a few weeks ago
that AI was going to be one of Trump’s risks: More people
rendered redundant. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>"Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better"</p>
<p> Aphorismically Yours,</p>
<p> - Sassafrass<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB59850F22266996FBF1D93096C5EF2@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen
Guerin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2025 10:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] GhostGPT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 11:02<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM
Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">My question was more
about how quickly a population can transition from
disorder to order. I was wondering if there
were historical examples of these potent immune
responses where the resolution was quick. A
contemporary example is the removal of Yoon in
South Korea. The mechanism might vary, but ours
is a particularly violent culture. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Focusing on Trump as an individual,
even as a legitimately elected leader, ignores the
systemic issues that enabled his rise, like institutional
decay and economic disparity. Political unrest reflects
deeper societal fractures that persist beyond one
administration. Unlike South Korea’s removal of Park
Geun-hye, the U.S. lacks the cohesive trust and mechanisms
needed for similar reform. Targeting Trump alone risks
leaving those root causes untouched, inviting the same
problems to reemerge.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2025 9:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] GhostGPT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Prompt:
steelman an argument that challenges the premise
of my prompt on political violence. Audience
FRIAM group email list. Snarky tone. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Oh, so corruption and illegitimacy are supposed
to be the magical catalysts for political
violence? That’s an adorably tidy theory. The
reality is messier—violence needs a potent brew
of economic collapse, inequality, and sometimes
foreign meddling, not just a "bad guy" in
charge. Plenty of corrupt regimes limp along
peacefully with patronage networks and
repression, while their citizens begrudgingly
prioritize stability over idealistic notions of
"legitimacy." And let’s not pretend legitimacy
is some universal standard—what’s corrupt to you
might be perfectly fine to someone else (hello,
cultural relativity). Besides, history is packed
with examples of violence against perfectly
legitimate leaders because deeper societal
fractures were the real issue. So yeah, blaming
political violence on corrupt leaders? Cute, but
maybe think bigger.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jan
28, 2025, 9:01<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM steve smith
<<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Glen -<br>
<br>
I have to agree with you on your rant. Not
just because I suspect that <br>
will trigger you, but because it actually
"got" to me in a new way.<br>
<br>
I do use the terminology of "<elaborate
statement X> can you <br>
reflect/elaborate/discuss/etc on this
for/with me?" at which point it <br>
(any given LLM of the moment) is likely to
very agreeably <br>
(obsequiously?) pretends to do just that.
For my purposes, it is <br>
(almost?) as if it is in fact doing "just
that"... but I think I <br>
intuitively agree with your
instinct/intuition that it is merely <br>
"pretending" to do that.<br>
<br>
Of course, I don't know how this fits into
your oft-stated idea that <br>
"people don't communicate" or "communication
is an illusion"... this <br>
bias would suggest that "if people don't
actually discuss <br>
(communicate?), then there is no reason to
believe gradient-descenders <br>
on high-dimensional manifolds would either?"<br>
<br>
I do agree that there is an element that my
"discussions" with LLM chat <br>
interfaces is a lot like a well-lubricated
browsing of spreadsheets <br>
and/or wikipedia pages (with spreadsheets
and charts and anecdotal <br>
examples linked heavily). But then chatting
with others (here included) <br>
has a great deal of that quality as well.<br>
<br>
Mumble,<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
On 1/28/25 8:44 AM, glen wrote:<br>
> I've always been annoyed by
[micro]bloggers who will launch a <br>
> rhetorical salvo and then write (often
shouted with an ! or all caps) <br>
> "Discuss!" What Claude and GPT are
doing here is not discussing. It's <br>
> not even "discursing", which I guess
isn't a word. The prompt would <br>
> better be "Lecture me on ...". But when
I type that into the anthropic <br>
> console (3.5-sonnet), I get "I aim to
discuss this complex topic <br>
> objectively and factually. Key
historical patterns include tensions <br>
> building over time through economic
disparities, erosion of rights, <br>
> and repression, often leading to
transition through mass movements, <br>
> legal reforms, and institutional
changes. I can discuss specific <br>
> historical examples if you're
interested."<br>
><br>
> Jesus H Christ. Claude is using your
sense of the word "discuss" too! <br>
> What has this world come to, where
[people|machines] can use any word <br>
> they want to mean any thing they want?
Get off my lawn!<br>
><br>
> More importantly, though, this stuff is
gaslighting everyone into <br>
> thinking one can *have* a discussion
with the machine. Can you? Is it <br>
> actually a discussion? I argue "no".
It's much more akin to browsing a <br>
> spreadsheet than discussing. Granted,
with stateful lookups, the <br>
> spreadsheet can remember your prior
query and do things like AND, OR, <br>
> NOT, or any F() it may choose. But when
2 animals have a discussion, <br>
> what actually happens to the animals?
Is what happens to the <br>
> (stateful) machine analogous to what
happens to the animal?<br>
><br>
> I think this is where the (artificial,
saccharine) obsequiousness of <br>
> the aligned LLMs really grates. When it
makes those statements like <br>
> "Oh right" or "Yes, I'm sorry" or
whatever, what has happened inside <br>
> the machine? Is it analogous to what
happens in the animal when they <br>
> flap their gums to extrude similar
words?<br>
><br>
> And when have you ever had a
conversation with someone (you respect) <br>
> and they just immediately roll over and
agree with you about anything? <br>
> Is this why people like "chatting" with
LLMs? Because they're <br>
> obsequious? Is it just a fancier
"filter bubble"? Ugh. Now I'm <br>
> nauseous. Thanks Obama.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 1/27/25 5:16 PM, Stephen Guerin
wrote:<br>
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 1:08<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Marcus
Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<br>
>> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I asked Claude about the
historical patterns for emergence and <br>
>> resolution of political violence
from corrupt leaders that are <br>
>> considered illegitimate, and it
essentially refused to answer. <br>
>> ChatGPT was more forthcoming..<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> hmm, here's Claude and ChatGPT's
initial response<br>
>><br>
>> Prompt: *discuss the historical
patterns for emergence and resolution <br>
>> of political violence from corrupt
leaders that are considered <br>
>> illegitimate *<br>
>><br>
>> Claude:<br>
>><br>
>> I'll analyze historical
patterns in how political violence <br>
>> emerges from and is resolved under
corrupt, illegitimate leadership. <br>
>> Let's examine this systematically:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Emergence patterns often begin with
a gradual erosion of <br>
>> institutional checks and balances.
Leaders typically consolidate <br>
>> power by:<br>
>> - Weakening independent judiciary
systems<br>
>> - Controlling or intimidating media
outlets<br>
>> - Corrupting or dismantling
oversight mechanisms<br>
>> - Creating parallel security forces
loyal to them personally rather <br>
>> than the state<br>
>><br>
>> Violence tends to escalate when:<br>
>> 1. Economic conditions deteriorate
and inequality increases<br>
>> 2. Opposition groups are
systematically excluded from political <br>
>> participation<br>
>> 3. Security forces are given
impunity for human rights violations<br>
>> 4. Traditional conflict resolution
mechanisms break down<br>
>><br>
>> Historical resolutions have
generally followed several paths:<br>
>><br>
>> Institutional Reform Path:<br>
>> This involves rebuilding democratic
institutions, often through:<br>
>> - Constitutional reforms<br>
>> - Creation of independent electoral
commissions<br>
>> - Strengthening judicial
independence<br>
>> - Establishing truth and
reconciliation processes<br>
>><br>
>> Popular Movement Path:<br>
>> Successful peaceful resistance
movements have often employed:<br>
>> - Sustained civil disobedience<br>
>> - Building broad coalitions across
social groups<br>
>> - Strategic use of strikes and
economic pressure<br>
>> - International solidarity networks<br>
>><br>
>> International Intervention Path:<br>
>> External pressure can contribute
through:<br>
>> - Targeted sanctions against
corrupt leaders and enablers<br>
>> - Support for civil society
organizations<br>
>> - Mediation between competing
factions<br>
>> - Peacekeeping operations when
necessary<br>
>><br>
>> Key factors that often determine
successful resolution:<br>
>> - Unity among opposition forces<br>
>> - Maintaining nonviolent discipline
in resistance movements<br>
>> - Support from key institutional
actors (military, civil service)<br>
>> - International diplomatic and
economic pressure<br>
>><br>
>> Would you like me to elaborate on
any of these patterns or discuss <br>
>> specific historical examples?<br>
>><br>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> same prompt: *discuss the
historical patterns for emergence and <br>
>> resolution of political violence
from corrupt leaders that are <br>
>> considered illegitimate *<br>
>><br>
>> ChatGPT:<br>
>> The historical emergence and
resolution of political violence <br>
>> stemming from corrupt and
illegitimate leaders often follow patterns <br>
>> influenced by societal, economic,
and cultural dynamics. These <br>
>> patterns can be divided into
phases:<br>
>><br>
>> ### 1. **Emergence of Political
Violence**<br>
>> Political violence often arises
when a leader's corruption or <br>
>> illegitimacy creates significant
discontent among the population. Key <br>
>> factors include:<br>
>><br>
>> - **Perceived Illegitimacy:**
Leaders who come to power through <br>
>> fraud, coercion, or foreign
intervention are often seen as <br>
>> illegitimate. This can spark
resentment, especially when governance <br>
>> fails to meet public expectations.<br>
>> - **Economic Inequality:**
Corrupt leaders often divert state <br>
>> resources for personal gain,
exacerbating wealth gaps and creating <br>
>> widespread economic hardship. This
inequality fuels discontent, <br>
>> especially among marginalized
groups.<br>
>> - **Erosion of Institutions:**
Corruption undermines trust in <br>
>> institutions like courts, police,
and legislatures, creating a vacuum <br>
>> where violence becomes an outlet
for grievances.<br>
>> - **Polarization:** Leaders who
use divisive rhetoric to <br>
>> consolidate power often create
factionalism within society. This <br>
>> polarization can escalate into
violent clashes between opposing groups.<br>
>> - **External Influences:**
Foreign powers may exploit unrest to <br>
>> destabilize a regime or support
opposition groups, adding to the <br>
>> violence.<br>
>><br>
>> ### 2. **Triggers of Political
Violence**<br>
>> The actual violence is often
triggered by events that act as <br>
>> tipping points, such as:<br>
>> - Rigged elections.<br>
>> - Unjustified crackdowns on
protests.<br>
>> - Revelations of egregious
corruption.<br>
>> - Human rights abuses or
massacres.<br>
>><br>
>> Examples include:<br>
>> - The Arab Spring (2010-2012),
sparked by economic hardship and <br>
>> corruption, where illegitimate
leaders were overthrown in Tunisia, <br>
>> Egypt, and Libya.<br>
>> - The French Revolution (1789),
fueled by inequality, a corrupt <br>
>> monarchy, and the failure of
reforms.<br>
>><br>
>> ### 3. **Resolution Pathways**<br>
>> The resolution of political
violence depends on whether <br>
>> institutional or revolutionary
mechanisms prevail. Historical <br>
>> patterns include:<br>
>><br>
>> #### **Reforms and
Transition:**<br>
>> - **Negotiated Settlements:**
Dialogue between the regime and <br>
>> opposition often leads to
power-sharing agreements or peaceful <br>
>> transitions, as seen in South
Africa's transition from apartheid in <br>
>> the 1990s.<br>
>> - **Anti-Corruption
Movements:** Public pressure or elite <br>
>> intervention may lead to systemic
reforms, as in post-Marcos <br>
>> Philippines after the People Power
Revolution (1986).<br>
>><br>
>> #### **Overthrow and
Revolution:**<br>
>> - **Regime Change:** When
reforms are impossible, violent <br>
>> revolutions or coups often result.
The Russian Revolution (1917) and <br>
>> the overthrow of Ceaușescu in
Romania (1989) exemplify this.<br>
>> - **Exile or Execution:**
Illegitimate leaders are sometimes <br>
>> forced into exile or executed, as
seen with Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire <br>
>> (1997) or Saddam Hussein in Iraq
(2006).<br>
>><br>
>> #### **State Fragmentation:**<br>
>> - **Civil War:** Prolonged
violence can lead to civil wars, as <br>
>> seen in Syria (post-2011), where
the regime's corruption and <br>
>> repression fractured the state.<br>
>><br>
>> ### 4. **Post-Conflict
Reconstruction**<br>
>> After the resolution of
violence, reconstruction efforts often <br>
>> determine long-term stability:<br>
>> - **Justice Mechanisms:**
Trials or truth commissions address <br>
>> grievances and establish
accountability, such as the Nuremberg Trials
<br>
>> after WWII or the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission in South Africa.<br>
>> - **Institutional Rebuilding:**
Strengthening institutions to <br>
>> ensure accountability and reduce
corruption is critical.<br>
>> - **Reconciliation Efforts:**
Social healing and bridging divides <br>
>> help prevent the resurgence of
violence, especially in polarized <br>
>> societies.<br>
>><br>
>> ### 5. **Broader Historical
Insights**<br>
>> - **Cycles of Corruption and
Reform:** Political systems often <br>
>> experience cycles where corruption
accumulates until it triggers <br>
>> violence or reform, only to repeat
in new forms (e.g., the Roman <br>
>> Empire's fall or Latin American
dictatorships in the 20th century).<br>
>> - **Role of Leadership and
Movements:** Effective leadership and <br>
>> well-organized movements often
determine whether change occurs <br>
>> peacefully or through violence.<br>
>> - **Global Trends:** External
pressures, such as economic <br>
>> sanctions or global public opinion,
can expedite resolutions but may <br>
>> also exacerbate conflict.<br>
>><br>
>> ### Lessons for Today<br>
>> The patterns of political violence
around corrupt leaders underscore <br>
>> the importance of:<br>
>> - Inclusive governance to
address grievances before they escalate.<br>
>> - Strong institutions that
resist corruption and ensure legitimacy.<br>
>> - Global and regional
mechanisms to mediate conflicts and promote
<br>
>> peaceful transitions.<br>
>><br>
>> Do you want to explore examples in
more detail or focus on a <br>
>> particular region or time period?<br>
>><br>
<br>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .-
.-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . /
.- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">____________________________________________<br>
CEO Founder, Simtable.com<br>
<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a> <br>
<br>
Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab<br>
<a href="mailto:stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu</a><br>
<br>
mobile: (505)577-5828<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-.
... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .-
.-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>