<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Thank you. I appreciate the amount of effort to distill and summarize!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 3:08 AM Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yes, sorry...<br>
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> On Jan 27, 2025, at 7:14 PM, Stephen Guerin <<a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 1:08 PM Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> But to suppose they _already_ contain everything there is to be understood is not a position I would take w.r.t. anything else we have anywhere in science. They contain or represent whatever they do. I don’t know how much that is, and what more it leaves to be found. I would be amazed if it were “everything”, since nothing else in science ever has been before.<br>
> <br>
> I'm trying to follow the thread. Was there a previous post you are addressing with "But to suppose they _already_ contain everything there is to be understood"<br>
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Thread has got kind of broomy. I was storing information holographically and responding to a few things among many.<br>
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Main trigger was Nick’s post You guys freak me out… and somewhere later saying that the AI interlocutor “already is” human (or something to that effect; and why don’t you guys recognize it), to which Frank said Typical behaviorist and Nick said No Frank monist.<br>
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I attached to that string with Searle’s argument against the position that the computational formalism “contains” whatever-all the common-language referents want attached to “consciousness”.<br>
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Marcus replied that something about the way I said it could also be said of QM.<br>
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And I replied to that, that this is a question of what one wants from the idea of a scientific law (of whatever kind).<br>
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To which Marcus, playing tennis simultaneously on a couple of courts I think, only one of which was the one I was on, tried to ward off Cartesian dualism, to which my “_already_ contain…” reply was a protestation not from a dualist position but from a fallibilist one, and an argument against circular containment relations (that this is a case where I don’t bet it will work out that the big universe, containing as a tiny subset of it the small formalism, will find itself contained within the formalism as a faithful mapping).<br>
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There was an interference of the above thread with Nick’s two threads on having GPT teach him thermodynamics (which would be a truly heroic accomplishment on Nick’s part, given the number of things it says that are either not-interpretable-as-sense, or that accommodate semantically ill-formed sentence constructions without calling them out and correcting them), and of the to-be-guessed writer F reducing everything to metaphor, seemingly choosing to not understand that the metaphor is a finger pointing at the moon. That was the old argument against this particular monism.<br>
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Roughly, <br>
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Eric<br>
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</blockquote></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">____________________________________________<br>CEO Founder, Simtable.com<br><a href="mailto:stephen.guerin@simtable.com">stephen.guerin@simtable.com</a> <br><br>Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab<br><a href="mailto:stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu">stephenguerin@fas.harvard.edu</a><br><br>mobile: (505)577-5828</div></div>