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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/25 10:03 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">What is
special, if anything, about organisms that have nervous
systems built on organic chemistry that could enable
something else?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Poised Realm? <br>
</p>
<p>OrchOR?</p>
<p>I doubt both equally, but I think that is what both are trying to
address?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB59858E7F2CB19ED2D380664EC5C32@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Frank
Wimberly <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"><wimberly3@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, February 24, 2025 at 8:51 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] free will<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">No<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Mon,
Feb 24, 2025, 4:27 PM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">If a LLM had constant
inputs from cameras, microphones, chemical sensors,
and sensiomotor feedback, and was continuously
training and performing inference, could it have
free will?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2025 1:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] free will<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Actually I don't care much
about views or traffic. I don't think many people
read it except the ones from this list. But I like
discussions about interesting topics. I mentioned
the blog post here because I wasn't sure if I have
(maybe unconsciously) stolen an idea from one of
you. Humans often forget where they have first seen
or heard an idea. Daniel Dennett mentions in his
book "I've been thinking" that he was afraid of
plagiarism (on page 61-63) and describes it as the
great academic sin.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I believe LLMs work
like humans in this respect: they are like money
laundering machines for copyrighted ideas who
wash away the copyright. They also tend to
hallucinate, like we do in dreams at night. And
they are excellent in predicting the next word
in a sentence (or action in a sequence), similar
to the motor cortex. They are in many ways
similar to us. It is fascinating and a little
bit frightening what these LLMs and AIs can do
already today. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">To come back to the
question of free will: I am not sure if free
willed actions are only those that are caused by
conscious thoughts. I believe conscious thoughts
can be used to prevent actions that we do not
want. The first steps to a free will is to
become aware of all the hidden influences that
try to control it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">We have an
"Influenceable will". When we become aware that
our will is influenced by ads or propaganda or
some kind of marketing, we can take steps to
reduce this hidden influence for example by
making the conscious decision to stop doing what
the ads ask for (for example stop buying
McDonald's Big Macs although the ads promise us
happiness and joy if we do it).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-J.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">--------
Original message --------</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:
Nicholas Thompson <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Date: 2/23/25
11:59 PM (GMT+01:00) </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">To: The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>>,
Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Subject: free
will </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I put a comment
Jochen's blog. Why dont we carry on over there
and help him generate traffic. I have attached
here a couple of papers that support the view
that people are lousy predictors of their own
behavior. If we [and only if] we take free
willed actions to be those that are caused by
conscious thoughts, then surely we must know
what we are going to do before we start to do it
and be much better at making such predictions
than are the people around us. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">N<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="m1276590015326786114gmailsignatureprefix"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Nicholas S.
Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Ethology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Clark University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
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