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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>If this kind of quantum gravity decoherence existed like Penrose imagined, then it would be a problem for modeling neutral atom quantum computers. These have coherence times that can be 10 seconds.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of steve smith <sasmyth@swcp.com><br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, February 25, 2025 at 1:57 PM<br><b>To: </b>friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] free will<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>On 2/24/25 10:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>What is special, if anything, about organisms that have nervous systems built on organic chemistry that could enable something else?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p>Poised Realm? <o:p></o:p></p><p>OrchOR?<o:p></o:p></p><p>I doubt both equally, but I think that is what both are trying to address?<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"><wimberly3@gmail.com></a><br><b>Date: </b>Monday, February 24, 2025 at 8:51 PM<br><b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] free will</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>No</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>On Mon, Feb 24, 2025, 4:27 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>If a LLM had constant inputs from cameras, microphones, chemical sensors, and sensiomotor feedback, and was continuously training and performing inference, could it have free will?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2025 1:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] free will</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Actually I don't care much about views or traffic. I don't think many people read it except the ones from this list. But I like discussions about interesting topics. I mentioned the blog post here because I wasn't sure if I have (maybe unconsciously) stolen an idea from one of you. Humans often forget where they have first seen or heard an idea. Daniel Dennett mentions in his book "I've been thinking" that he was afraid of plagiarism (on page 61-63) and describes it as the great academic sin.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>I believe LLMs work like humans in this respect: they are like money laundering machines for copyrighted ideas who wash away the copyright. They also tend to hallucinate, like we do in dreams at night. And they are excellent in predicting the next word in a sentence (or action in a sequence), similar to the motor cortex. They are in many ways similar to us. It is fascinating and a little bit frightening what these LLMs and AIs can do already today. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>To come back to the question of free will: I am not sure if free willed actions are only those that are caused by conscious thoughts. I believe conscious thoughts can be used to prevent actions that we do not want. The first steps to a free will is to become aware of all the hidden influences that try to control it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>We have an "Influenceable will". When we become aware that our will is influenced by ads or propaganda or some kind of marketing, we can take steps to reduce this hidden influence for example by making the conscious decision to stop doing what the ads ask for (for example stop buying McDonald's Big Macs although the ads promise us happiness and joy if we do it).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>-J.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>From: Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>Date: 2/23/25 11:59 PM (GMT+01:00) </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>>, Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>Subject: free will </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br clear=all></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>I put a comment Jochen's blog. Why dont we carry on over there and help him generate traffic. I have attached here a couple of papers that support the view that people are lousy predictors of their own behavior. If we [and only if] we take free willed actions to be those that are caused by conscious thoughts, then surely we must know what we are going to do before we start to do it and be much better at making such predictions than are the people around us. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>N</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=m1276590015326786114gmailsignatureprefix><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>-- </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Nicholas S. Thompson</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Clark University</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu">nthompson@clarku.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>