<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Hey, there, Glen. Them are some tall metaphors! <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have from a friend some inkling about the way in which llm's have affected software writing (as opposed tothe regular kind). But only an inkling. Could you say more? </blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br></blockquote>Nick</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 11:15 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know. If small green bipedal creatures landed on earth and started tending to yardwork would that also be a disappointment?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">They’ve failed to trim my tall hedge, so curse them!<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div lang="EN-US"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Thompson<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Monday, April 28, 2025 9:44 AM<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree<u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Marcus,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I find that George's indulgence with bad metaphor very useful.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also find amazing his ability to grasp the gist of what I am asking. I have essential tremor and a bad keyboard and still George almost always gets the message. Siri will take any opportunity to misunderstand.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In this case, it was I, not George, who was cranking out the sloppy metaphors, trying to find a way to convey just how thin the atmosphere is. I was hoping Saran wrap thin, but that appears to be an order of magnitude too far.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am I reading this wrong? people often talk about LLM's as if they are
<i>disappointed</i> in them, as if there is something they SHOULD do that they aren't doing. Do you have any idea what the disappointment might be?: What is the world hankering for that they don't provide?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 9:37<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I wonder if the George makers 1) realized that people have an affinity to iffy analogies and they should give the people what they want, or 2) the LLM was prone to generating them
so they just made it a feature?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam <</span><a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Thompson<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Sunday, April 27, 2025 8:12 PM<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <</span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">friam@redfish.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">George and I were looking for intuition pumps to help a reader imagine how very thin the troposphere is. Here is what we came up with:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<h3>Ordered by Type: Too Thin → Best Match → Too Thick<u></u><u></u></h3>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0">
<thead>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<b><span>Material / Object</span></b><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<b><span>Relative Thickness</span></b><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<b><span>Too Thin or Too Thick?</span></b><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<b><span>Notes</span></b><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Weather balloon skin (fully inflated)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~280× too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Way too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Soap-film fragile<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Plastic wrap (1 layer)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~7× too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Would need ~7 layers<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Eyeball tear film<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~4× too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Slightly too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Very close, poetic comparison<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Party balloon skin (inflated)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~3× too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Slightly too thin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Best easy everyday match<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Troposphere</span></b><span><br>
Apple peel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~14× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Best among fruits<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Basketball skin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~16× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Similar to soccer ball<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Soccer ball skin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~17× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Very close to basketball<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Baseball leather skin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~25× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Heavier and thicker still<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Tennis ball felt+skin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~37× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Very thick and fuzzy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Navel Orange peel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>~70× too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Way too thick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0.75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thickest skin we've discussed<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span>-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span>-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>