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    <p>I couldn't find a good extant term but <i>autopoetic surrogacy</i>
      comes to mind? <br>
    </p>
    <p>And Ted Chiang's <i>Lifecycle of Software Objects</i> seems to
      touch on this as well..  His digients...</p>
    <p>Also seems like Vinge's (as foreshadower of Singularity) in <i>Fire
        Upon the Deep </i>went<i> there </i>early<i>?</i></p>
    <p>Stephenson's<i> Anathem  </i>which<i> </i>I generally found too
      dense/rich seemed to touch on this<i> autopoetic surrogacy </i>but
      with other-than-digital-computer  signal processing systems?  His
      <i>Mathic Worlds</i> smack of the Glen's implied assertions about
      the necessity (or facility?) of formal language vs natural
      language?   <i>Mathic Worlds</i> seeming to  have their own
      ecology/economy but expressed entirely in formal rather than
      natural languages?<br>
    </p>
     Mumble,<br>
    <p> - Steve</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/25 8:25 PM, steve smith wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:fabd06ca-44c2-4128-a621-2866dc9d42e2@swcp.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <p>thanks...  I saw the self-referential loop connection...  I've
        got Roanhorse's short story on my stack now and the details will
        probably help me get it (even) better.   Glad to know others are
        appreciating the likes of Roanhorse' work.   I appreciate your
        referencing this particular work of hers, I'm surprised I'd
        missed it since it was yet more broadly acclaimed than her
        novel.</p>
      <p>I do think there is a realistic possibility that we will
        somehow get fully dealt out of our own game in pretty short
        order..  I don't know the term for this, I read Bostrom's book
        on Superintelligence before the current AI craze exploded and
        can't remember if he had any terms more appropriate to this than
        mere "alignment".<br>
      </p>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/25 6:09 PM, Santafe wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:5605F0A4-A615-4D1C-883D-C9B09F416941@santafe.edu">
        <meta http-equiv="content-type"
          content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
        Hi Steve,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Toward the end of Glen’s post, he was commenting on how the
          LLMs that he (the post’s narrator) thought were participating
          in a scenario of his design end up displacing him by being the
          actual dictators of the scenario, and replace him not only as
          designer but as participant entirely.  So he goes to live
          under a bridge like the characters Suttree visits.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Marcus’s clip about the prompts at the bottom of GTP’s
          Svejk-like service were in a similar spirit, +/- how close any
          of these resonances is to a particular story like AIE.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Eric</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
          <div><br>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div>On Apr 30, 2025, at 8:11, steve smith <a
                  class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                  href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><sasmyth@swcp.com></a>
                wrote:</div>
              <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              <div>
                <meta charset="UTF-8">
                <p
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Eric
                  -</p>
                <p
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">I
                  have read Roanhorse's post-Apocalyptic<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Trail of
                    Lightning</i>... and tripped over the controversy
                  over the subtle/complicated claims of Tribal identity
                  and cultural appropriation.  I didn't read more of her
                  work because after this novel she veered further into
                  *fantasy* which is not my genre-of-choice so much.  
                  The description of this short  story (very highly
                  heralded) would seem to suggest significant irony
                  regarding the criticism she drew for her subsequent
                  novel? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                </p>
                <p
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">For
                  the PostModernists (or adjacent) among us, I wonder if
                  this whole tangle isn't very PoMo with her
                  simultaneous inhabitation and critique of systems of
                  representation?  Did Marcus response go full PoMo as
                  well? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                </p>
                <p
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">All
                  this aside, can you elaborate the relevance of why you
                  injected this into this thread at this point?  
                  Stylistic similarity to Glen's allegorical character
                  study of obnoxious little green men as LLM? (or
                  vice-versa?).   The little green men, very
                  superficially reminded me of Spielberg's<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Gremlins</i>?</p>
                <p
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">-
                  Steve</p>
                <div class="moz-cite-prefix"
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">On
                  4/29/25 2:41 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985266E0DE39EF8FC591B66C5802@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
                  <div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;">
                    <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Keeping
                      with superdeterminism, I like am pleased to see
                      suggested questions at the bottom of George. <span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
                    <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">When
                      it truly has omniscience, I will be able to simply
                      click on the suggested question and I will be
                      unnecessary. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
                    <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
                    <div>
                      <div
style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentcolor currentcolor; border-image: none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
                        <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                              href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
                              Behalf Of<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Santafe<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
                            April 29, 2025 12:50 PM<br>
                            <b>To:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The
                            Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
                            Group<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                              href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
                            <b>Subject:</b><span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                            [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the
                            tropospheree<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
                    <div>
                      <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Written
                        in 2017?<o:p></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
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style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span
id="cid:part1.ztAAJoGO.6L1BT8Ui@swcp.com"><image001.jpg></span></span><span
style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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                      <div
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                      <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><br>
                        <br>
                        <o:p></o:p></div>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                        <div>
                          <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">On
                            Apr 29, 2025, at 22:04, glen <<a
                              href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
                            wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">More
                              like if little green creatures came into
                              my kitchen to cook up some stinky fish ...
                              and then leave the kitchen all messy for
                              me to clean up ... the whole house
                              stinking of fish for days ... until they
                              show up again just when it stopped
                              stinking. And as time goes on, they're
                              going to show up more often ... not merely
                              to stink up the house with fish, but to
                              re-landscape the yard, paint the house
                              ugly colors, paint garish murals on all
                              the inside walls, swap out my truck for a
                              "truck" from Elno, and replace the beer in
                              my fridge with fscking *seltzer*.<br>
                              <br>
                              And they'll eventually get on my keyboard
                              and start doing "work" for my clients ...
                              work the clients didn't ask for and don't
                              want ... until they convince them they do
                              want it ... then the little green
                              creatures will evict me and I'll go live
                              under a bridge.<br>
                              <br>
                              On 4/28/25 10:14 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
                              <br>
                              <o:p></o:p></div>
                            <blockquote
style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                              <div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">I
                                know.  If small green bipedal creatures
                                landed on earth and started tending to
                                yardwork would that also be a
                                disappointment?<br>
                                They’ve failed to trim my tall hedge, so
                                curse them!<br>
                                *From:*Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
                                *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson<br>
                                *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2025 9:44 AM<br>
                                *To:* The Friday Morning Applied
                                Complexity Coffee Group <<a
                                  href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
                                *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The comparative
                                thickness of the tropospheree<br>
                                Hi  Marcus,<br>
                                I find that George's indulgence with bad
                                metaphor very useful.<br>
                                I  also find amazing his ability to
                                grasp the gist of what I am asking.  I
                                have essential tremor and a bad keyboard
                                and still George almost always gets the
                                message.  Siri will take any opportunity
                                to misunderstand.<br>
                                In this case, it was I, not George, who
                                was cranking out the sloppy metaphors,
                                trying to find a way to convey just how
                                thin the atmosphere is.  I was hoping
                                Saran wrap thin, but that appears to be
                                an order of magnitude too far.<br>
                                Am I reading this wrong? people often
                                talk about LLM's as if they are
                                /disappointed/ in them, as if there is
                                something they SHOULD do that they
                                aren't doing.  Do you have any idea what
                                the disappointment might be?: What is
                                the world hankering for that they don't
                                provide?<br>
                                Nick<br>
                                On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 9:37<span
style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span>PM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com%20%3cmailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">marcus@snoutfarm.com
                                  <mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
                                wrote:<br>
                                   I wonder if the George makers 1)
                                realized that people have an affinity to
                                iffy analogies and they should give the
                                people what they want, or 2) the LLM was
                                prone to generating them so they just
                                made it a feature?<br>
                                   *From:*Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com%20%3cmailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">friam-bounces@redfish.com
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                                *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson<br>
                                   *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2025 8:12
                                PM<br>
                                   *To:* The Friday Morning Applied
                                Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com%20%3cmailto:friam@redfish.com"
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                                  <mailto:friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
                                   *Subject:* [FRIAM] The comparative
                                thickness of the tropospheree<br>
                                   George and I were looking for
                                intuition pumps to help a reader imagine
                                how very thin the troposphere is.   Here
                                is what we came up with:<o:p></o:p></div>
                            </blockquote>
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                                style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">ן</span>ı<span
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                    <div
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                  <br>
                  <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
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</pre>
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