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<p>The geometric metaphor/analogy oft used here to discuss LLMs (and
othr contemporary Generative AI?) is that of interpolation.
While I am compelled by this myself, (subsampling and gradient
following on high dimensional manifolds) I am also lead to
believe/suspect that topological interpolation/extrapolation, in
the same sense as conceptual blending is relevant? I haven't
followed the original reference to Hopfield's topographic metaphor
but I'm vaguely surprised from what I know of him that he'd not
also invoke topology... <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/9/25 7:39 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">OK Nick, You asked for it:</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">I totally agree with you.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">As I believe you do, I think
metaphor is absolutely essential, generalizing a bit on Quine's
statement "at the fringe of science only metaphor can guide us"
I would replace science with understanding. But when it comes to
the brain, Mind, Consciousness, and Intelligence—no one has
produced a useful or even usable metaphor that increases our
understanding.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The only point of departure, is I
would find less fault with anthropomorphism than I do with the
computational metaphor that dominates the conversation about
brain-mind-intelligence. Mary is a mere imp compared to that
Satan.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I do like Hopfield's metaphor of a
topographic surface that channels "rainfall" (inputs) to
"oceans" (outputs) as an explanation for the operation of one
possible bit of "innards," i.e., a neural net.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, May 9, 2025, at 5:16 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</div>
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<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;">Oh Gosh, Jochen. On the one hand
I am deeply indebted to FRIAM members for allowing me to
noodle in areas of thought where I have no business; on
the other hand, I feel obligated not to hide from you how
very, very bad I think Mary C. Lamia’s thinking is. In
the first place, lover of metaphors that am, I think the
anthropomorphism of the brain is one of the most dangerous
metaphors a human can bring to psychology, because it sets
off an eternal loop of thought from which there is no
escape. Meteorology and Psychology have much in common.
They both have to do with objects with innards operating
in environments. With Psychology, the objects are human,
the innards are the guts and brain, and the environment is
the people and things around us. In Meteorology, the
objects are the storms, the innards are the fronts and
other structures of cyclones, and the environment is the
earth’s surface and the larger circulation of its
atmosphere. Perhaps I feel drawn to Meteorology just
because it seems so like a behavioral science. (Or, to
get the order of events right, I was drawn to Psychology
because it was so like Meteorology.) But we must keep
our levels of organization straight. And if we, like Mary
C., are to make metaphors between the whole (the person)
and the part (the brain) and then to say that the part is
manipulating the whole, she ought to be damn clear what
kind of metaphorical world she his let herself into or she
will never get out alive. I don’t think she knows anything
she is talking about. I would be terrified if one of my
college-aged grandchildren were to fall into the hands of
such a person. </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;">I am deeply sorry if I am being a
jerk. (And will no doubt deeplier sorrier when one of you
points out both that I am both being a jerk and that I am
wrong). If you were tempted to carry on this conversation
further, now I have been a jerk, I would love to explore
with you how some aspect of Mary’s thought accorded with
your experience and perhaps gave you comfort or insight
because of that. When she talks of the brain, what is she
actually talking about for you. Because, if one thing is
damned sure, it is that when people talk about their
brains, they are talking about something they have never
touched or seen or heard or felt. They are talking about
a beetle in a box, a nothing. Or they are using the brain
as a model of behavior. </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;">OK, Russ, Dave, Glen, Marcus,
Erics, have at me. </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;">Nick</span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">From:</span></span></b><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen
Fromm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 24, 2025 2:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] Your personal truth</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">If Nick shares his struggles with
weather I can share my unqualified thoughts about
psychology :-P I was thinking about the orange menace,
how he deceives everyone and how he manipulates his
followers by controlling their emotions and I was
wondering if emotions deceive us in general. Do emotions
deceive us by creating a reality distortion field that
paints the objects they have identified as desirable
(primarily food & mates for supper and pairing time)
in the brightest colors? </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">Emotions certainly need to
manipulate us in order to control us. Their purpose is
to influence our behavior and interactions. Psychologist
Mary C. Lamia writes "Without any deliberate effort on
your part, your brain evaluates every situation you
encounter and decides if an emotion should be activated
to alert and protect you" [1]. They are in a sense the
PR machine and advertising agency of the body. As if the
body would create an advertising agency that highlights
the objects it should seek. </span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">Emotions deceive us because they
exaggerate. If we are in love they turn the desired
object of person into some kind of wonderful dream. We
only perceive positive traits while negative ones are
overlooked. If we hate something we only perceive
negative traits. These distortions act on top of your
beliefs which "create a cognitive lens through which you
interpret the events of your world" [2]</span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">They exaggerate to alert and
protect us. Mary C. Lamia writes "By creating anxiety,
anger, sadness, fear, guilt, shame, disgust,
embarrassment, or any number of emotional responses that
your brain has at its disposal, your emotional system
attempts to inform and protect you by making you feel
whatever it is you need to know." [1]</span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">Emotions deceive us because they
can be misguided based on your previous experience, for
example in anxiety disorders or addiction: "Your
emotional system has no reason to lie, although it can
be misguided based on your previous experiences in the
world that have informed it." [1]</span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">Apparently emotions create a
personal truth for each of us which shows us the world
as they (on behalf of our selfish genes) want us to see
it. A kind of personalized, distorted version of reality
that reflects the importance of each object based on our
personal longings and desires. Mary C. Lamia writes
"nevertheless, your emotions will tell you the truth -
your truth - even if you don't want to listen." [1]</span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">[1] <a
href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201208/do-emotions-lie"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201208/do-emotions-lie</a></span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;"><span
style="color:black;">[2] <a
href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-forward/202009/how-your-thinking-creates-your-reality"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-forward/202009/how-your-thinking-creates-your-reality</a></span></p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">-J.</p>
</div>
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