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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#467886" vlink="#96607D" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>There will be a fate vs. the fate is knowable. Not sure why people bring that distinction up as interesting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>steve smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The entropy of thought<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p style='margin:0in'>< <span style='color:black'>The interesting qu</span>e<span style='color:black'>stion is where exactly does the deterministic system turn into something nondeterministic, and how?</span>><br><br>It doesn’t. A deterministic system is a deterministic system. <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>who might have first made the distinction : "deterministic but not pre-stateable"?<o:p></o:p></p><p>George offered:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><thead><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b>Year<o:p></o:p></b></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b>Thinker<o:p></o:p></b></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b>Conceptual Expression<o:p></o:p></b></p></td></tr></thead><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>1931<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Kurt Gödel<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Incompleteness: truths not derivable<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>1936<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Alan Turing<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Halting problem: uncomputable predictions<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>1970s<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Heinz von Foerster<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Second-order cybernetics: unknowability of future<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>1991<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Robert Rosen<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Closure to efficient causation; entailment limits<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>1993<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Stuart Kauffman<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Adjacent possible; unprestatable evolution<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>2005<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Gregory Chaitin<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Incompressible but defined numbers (e.g., Ω)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>